What do older fans think?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Admiral Jean-Luc Picard, Mar 9, 2020.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One, she acknowledges that her relationship with the Terran dictator is based on her guilt. That's part of her character growth.
    "The Klingon leader?" Tyler didn't know he was a Klingon when that relationship started up. That also became a point of Burnham's growth.

    Her parents were Section 31 agents. Not sure how that's a problem.

    The war would have started regardless. That's what T'Kumva wanted. Burnham eventually stopped the war. I'm sure that meant something.
     
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  2. Uhura's Song

    Uhura's Song Captain Captain

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    My first recollection of watching Trek (and Doctor Who) was on re-runs when my father would take me to my grandmother's house to visit. About every two or three weeks. She lived in Galion, OH, which is about halfway from Columbus to Cleveland, and near to Mansfield, which just big enough to have its own local channels. As a result, we could always get two (or sometimes even 3!) episodes of Trek/Who. The local PBS/independent/network station would show different reruns.

    Anyway, this was probably mid to late 70s. Probably saw nearly all the TOS episodes that way, and was a near religious TNG viewer, though college did make me miss some.

    Watched the first year or so of DS9 but then stopped. VOY held me for 3-4 years, but then I stopped. Gave ENT a shot but waned in late S2. Have watched all 3 in their entirety on streaming, and improved my opinion of each, especially DS9.

    If I had to rank them, TOS & TNG are far and away my favorites, DS9 far and away 3rd, and VOY/ENT neck and neck for 4th. Probably VOY if you press me. The good ones were really good.

    As for new Trek, I am not the biggest fan, though I still watch & subscribe. The JJ movies are my least favorite by a huge margin (TOS by a mile for 1st).

    I think I prefer episodic to serial, though I cannot lie and say the idiotic episodic nature of VOY did not wear on my after a while (infinite shuttles!).

    Perhaps it is the length of this seasons (22-26 eps vs 10-12). This almost mandates less character development, particularly for secondary characters. Perhaps it is the need to preserve mystery and reveals throughout the season, and the plot gymnastics that requires. I just don't get the emotional punch from the new shows that often, too rushed for me. Though there have been a couple delightful exceptions.

    I will say, there are some things that do NOT bother me: swearing, visual continuity (floppy discs and laptops aren't futuristic), dark tones (loved NuBSG), SJW criticisms (Trek has always been about this, RWNJs just have their panties in a bunch since Obama won), "not real Trek" criricisms (these are BS and have been levied against every Trek iteration since TNG).

    The main things for me, I think, are as follows:

    1) Less episodes. It took me a while to warm to every new Trek series. To emotionally bond with the characters. Especually those beyond the main 2-3, and even that took some time. 7 episodes, or 20, and I am not there yet.

    2) Does everything have to be constantly life/death galaxtic destruction, end of federation, end of earth level threats? Yeesh. Sign that the show/characters cannot generate interest/urgency on their own, has to be plot driven instead.

    3) DISCO: I am in the minority, but I really did NOT like the second half of the second season. Going for cheap tears on Ariam's death that were not earned and the massive internal plot continuity stuff (wait, I thought she had juice for only 1 jump?) was just too much. The constant change in writers/showrunners took a toll.

    4) Star Trek as action over thinking.

    Not that I mind a good space battle, or a fight or two, but high tension, low explosion/ body counts are much better (Balance of Terror, TWOK, Amok Time, Arena, etc) than constant/superfluous action scenes (Picard driving dirt buggies, all of JJ Trek, a lot of Disco).

    Sorry for the length. But that is my $0.02. Though in fairness, if you'd have asked me what I thought of TNG/DS9 after 8 (or 24) episodes, I would not have been terribly enthusiastic either. And I think as S1s go, DISCO & PIC are/were both pretty good. Better than TNG/DS9/ENT S1s for sure (TOS1 is the beat S1 by a mile).

    Though it is pretty good because of a string of pretty good episodes, but few (if any) real classics. Again, the serialized nature almost prevents it. One cannot tell if an episode made sense or not, or if what character X did made sense or not, until you view the next episode. Or episodes. You cannot put a bow on any episode after you view it.
     
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  3. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Commodore Commodore

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    Any one of those things is fine with me but all of them together is just way too much to happen one person
     
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  4. AresB

    AresB Commander Red Shirt

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    Well it's not much different from the Enterprise being the only ship in the sector whenever anything interesting happens. Or, in certain other series, all ancient artifacts surfacing and prophecies coming true in the same small American town with the same group of young people getting involved. ;)
     
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  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But, that's most of fiction. Look at the fan fiction that popped up around Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet.

    Taken together in this context I can see it being a challenge, but inside the show it works better, in my opinion. Mileage and all that jazz.
     
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  6. SJGardner

    SJGardner Commodore Commodore

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    For some reason, people never seemed to have a problem with the Collective's envoy to Voyager being a drone who was not only the personal protégé of the Borg Queen, but also the daughter of the first known Federation scientists to have gone on an expedition into Borg territory, involved in multiple Borg incursions into the Alpha Quadrant in the 2360s, and a member of Unimatrix Zero. And that's just the things she had done before she joined Voyager's crew.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. It always amazes me how this is problematic now but not before for...reasons...
     
  8. Spock Must Diet!

    Spock Must Diet! Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    It is generally accepted, and generally a problem, in all serial fiction that the interesting stuff keeps happening to the same person or group. But, generally we accept it because we understand that it is for that reason that the story is being told - this person or group had an amazing career (or life, or what have you). I think this is why the conceit of fitting Discovery between the lines of existing continuity bugs me. We have already been told the story of (presumably) the most interesting/ illustrious crew and ship of the era in the form of Kirk, Spock, and crew. It is intuitively hard to believe that not only is there another ship with incredible stories set in the same timeframe, but its history is also thoroughly interwoven with the history of some of the first group of characters that we have willingly suspended our (justified) disbelief for. I think this basic issue is why Disco is getting kicked to the distant future - to get them out of the way and thereby getting some storytelling room. Frankly, the series might have been better served if it were set, say, 30 years before TOS.
     
  9. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, I guess I qualify as an older fan now. I'm 48. Grew up watching TOS in reruns. Saw all the movies in their cinema runs. I'm a big fan of TNG, with all its faults, & the TOS movies. I've actually steadily become less enthralled with the franchise a little bit more with every new year of content since those, & these two new series don't really seem to be changing that perspective for me. I guess of any Star Trek produced in the last 15 years, I suppose the ones I found the least unpalatable were maybe the J.J. Abrams movies, but even that's not saying much.

    I don't slight or begrudge other people for enjoying any of it, but they really seem to be moving away from the tone of show I loved. For my money, the Netflix reboot of Lost In Space (Which has issues too) is much more my taste than any current incarnation of Star Trek, as was the Firefly series. Those reflect the tone that drew me to Trek. IMHO, they have sucked almost all of what thrilled me about Star Trek out of the show, namely the adventurousness.

    That said, good/bad is subjective. It's a story they're telling, characters they're fleshing out, & a property they're trying to make. So clearly they are making it for someone, & it's more evident daily that that someone is not me, & I can be ok with that. They certainly are
     
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  10. AresB

    AresB Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm 48 as well and I enjoy both new series. They're welcome contrast to the bland, beige Berman era. While I liked TNG, VOY and ENT, they were often too afraid to take risks and make changes. They usually wrapped everything up in 45 minutes and never referred to it later. DS9 is my favorite of that time for daring to break the formula, and now DSC and Picard continue to go further that way. They're certainly darker in tone and dwell more in the less utopistic edges of the Federation, but the optimism and ethics are still there. It's easier to see in the second watching.
     
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  11. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Commodore Commodore

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    Surely there should be a huge difference in how a big budget show and fan fiction are judged and I do really like DIS when it branches out to the rest of the crew ( With the exception of cheif of security Clem Fandango)

    And I know its a little off topic but I agree that VOY could make the entire Delta Quadrant feel a little too small soemtimes by putting in too many Alpha/Beta ships and missiles and people.
     
  12. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    Welcome to September 8th, 1966.
     
  13. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    I'm 53, and start watching the originals series in reruns around 1978. I've seen every single movie in the theater first run and have watched every new episode of Star Trek since 1987 within days, or at most due to circumstances weeks, from its release. I've read countless comics and novels. I don't automatically like something just because they slap "Star Trek" on it. I was not a huge fan of Voyager, Enterprise or the JJ movies.

    I love both Discovery and Picard. they brought Star Trek storytelling into the 21st century, and despite the complaints of gatekeepers wearing rose colored glasses, the shows have successfully carried on the spirit of future optimism of the BermaTrek era.

    The visual upgrades in Discovery are not a problem with me. I don't see why anybody would want to show that look like it was produced in the 1960s. Updating certain things to modern standards was a necessity. I like the smaller focus of the principal cast. Rather than provide a checklist (captain, check. First officer, check. science officer, chief engineer, check, ships doctor check. Helmsman, check. navigator, check) the story focuses on four characters. Burnham, Tilly, Saru, and Stamets. That way you don't get characters that essentially get ignored, like Kim or Mayweather. Tilly and Saru in particular are two of the best characters in the entire franchise. I love the added wrinkle that Michael's existing brings into the Sarek family dynamic.

    The story in season 2 wasn't as good, but the character work was fantastic. Christopher Pike was elevated from a canonical curiosity to one of the best characters in the entire franchise. If Memory Serves would probably be on a top 10 list of all time favorite episodes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A story is a story. A story is just a series of coincidences that occur on screen or on the page for the audience's benefit.

    And, I think this is illustrative of what fans have thought about the Kirk era-Kirk is the greatest and his crew as the most special. And now, DSC comes along and (apparently) challenges such assumptions. But, could there not be other ships just as special as Kirk and co? Are they truly that exceptional?

    DSC has its challenges to be sure, but that stuff is happening to Burnham is not one I see as the issue.
     
  15. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Commodore Commodore

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    As fun as the Kirk movies are I'm actually way more a TNG or DS9 man. I do think people do get a bit blinded to a shows flaws when they are attached to it I personally didn't notice alot of problems with older trek till it was pointed out to me here
     
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  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That is always the struggle of being analytical of the things we love. I think the key is to engage with it in that moment, rather than get lost in the milieu of outside influences and details.
     
  17. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Commodore Commodore

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    I'm sure if I liked Burnham as a character I would be able to gloss over DISs issues easier
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That is a pretty common comment I read. And I completely get that. I do not like most of the TNG characters so I don't really get in to that show as much. And, DSC hangs heavily on Burnham and the serialized storyline so if you're not onboard then what is there left?
     
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  19. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Commodore Commodore

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    To judge like for like and just take the first 2 seasons TNG didn't have any characters as strong as Stamets or Saru
     
  20. The Lensman

    The Lensman Commodore Commodore

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    I'm 53, the original Trek is my favorite show of all time and I love Discovery.
     
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