What did you think of the... er.. homage scene? (spoilers)

[Franklin]

There are posts some people are making that I don't think they would really mean if they stopped to think about it. Are they really saying the intensity of one's response to a death should be in proportion to whether or not the person was family or how long and well the person knew the deceased?

Really?

Having saw the movie last night, I think Kirk's death scene was BETTER than the one in TWOK. I posted why I believe that in another thread, so I won't spam this one repeating myself.

 

[mos6507]

Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

Remember when (the original TOS) Spock was faced with Kirk's death in "Amok Time"?--a time when his Vulcan emotions were very much at the surface due to his pon farr--Spock did not scream in anguish or yell at the killer (himself). He kept himself in check. And even later, when he found out Kirk was not dead, he only reacted with a "soft" shout--and then quickly got himself back into control within seconds. Yet this nuSpock lost so much control that he went on an almost murderous rampage to attack Khan

That's exactly how I feel. Having Spock lose his cool is a gratuitous and unsubtle way to handle Vulcans. It's like JJ thinks that's what the audience really wants. In TOS, they rationed out the moments where Spock lost it very sparingly. Elsewhere, Nimoy underplayed little hints of emotion here and there. Looking for those traces of emotion in every little pregnant pause and eyebrow raise is the entire appeal of Vulcans in Star Trek, not just having a plot that pushes them over the edge.

For instance, when Spock is emotional after the V'Ger mind-meld, it made sense because the entire picture revolves around the existential question of pure logic vs. emotion. That's why one of the first scenes is Spock about to accept the Kolinahr, and then refusing. But this film doesn't delve into it, at least not that deeply, besides a few decent lines with Uhura inside their Millenium Falcon ripoff, where Spock says that a big part of the appeal of holding his emotions back is to prevent the pain of grieving over the loss of Vulcan. But that's a very egocentric way of looking at Vulcan philosophy. Spock is supposed to buy into the logic thing on its own merits, not simply as a way to handle PTSD. So this is kind of a bastardization of the character and a reluctance on JJ's part to fully embrace the philosophy as a valid way of life (at least for some).

Kirk accepted Spock despite Spock's seeming indifference. Ultimately Spock having a different way of looking at the world plays into the diversity theme, and to open people's minds about other ways of thinking. But JJ kind of wants characters (like Uhura, by nagging) or situations (like Kirk's death) to show Spock the error of his ways. The whole idea of Spock is that he can be seemingly unemotional AND a good person at the same time, even a good friend. There's nothing wrong or broken about him. You just have to understand him on his own wavelength--without needing to actually see him cry or laugh. So I think JJ sees Spock's logic as a character flaw rather than a virtue or a point of diversity.

 

[C.E. Evans]

For me, I took it solely as an inside joke to Trek fans. I kind of think it wasn't meant to be taken "too seriously," but more as a or kind of thing. That being said, I thought it was a pretty funny twist on a classic Trek moment.

 

[sj4iy]

I couldn't have been crying more. People could actually hear me. And I even knew the death scene was coming because SOMEONE spoiled it for me :/ However, it didn't change the emotion of the scene for me at all, because like someone said, these two characters have gone through a lot in their time together, and Spock hasn't mastered his emotions at this point. They are clearly best friends throughout the movie, and the way that Spock runs when Scotty calls just cements it. I absolutely lost it when Kirk said he was scared, and then Spock saying that he was failing in controlling his emotions. The scream felt so completely natural to me, and we know that Spock is a bit more hot-headed and vengeful than Spock Prime because of what happened to his people and his family. And we can't forget, he's half-human, and to me, it seems that he is in touch more with that human side of himself because he lost his mother. "Earth is the only home I have left," he said in the first film. Traumatic experiences change a person, and there's no way to believe that this Spock would turn out like Spock Prime. I went and saw it again, and I still broke down. So yes, I loved it and wouldn't change a thing at all.

 

[Franklin]

Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

Remember when (the original TOS) Spock was faced with Kirk's death in "Amok Time"?--a time when his Vulcan emotions were very much at the surface due to his pon farr--Spock did not scream in anguish or yell at the killer (himself). He kept himself in check. And even later, when he found out Kirk was not dead, he only reacted with a "soft" shout--and then quickly got himself back into control within seconds. Yet this nuSpock lost so much control that he went on an almost murderous rampage to attack Khan

That's exactly how I feel. Having Spock lose his cool is a gratuitous and unsubtle way to handle Vulcans. It's like JJ thinks that's what the audience really wants. In TOS, they rationed out the moments where Spock lost it very sparingly. Elsewhere, Nimoy underplayed little hints of emotion here and there. Looking for those traces of emotion in every little pregnant pause and eyebrow raise is the entire appeal of Vulcans in Star Trek, not just having a plot that pushes them over the edge.

For instance, when Spock is emotional after the V'Ger mind-meld, it made sense because the entire picture revolves around the existential question of pure logic vs. emotion. That's why one of the first scenes is Spock about to accept the Kolinahr, and then refusing. But this film doesn't delve into it, at least not that deeply, besides a few decent lines with Uhura inside their Millenium Falcon ripoff, where Spock says that a big part of the appeal of holding his emotions back is to prevent the pain of grieving over the loss of Vulcan. But that's a very egocentric way of looking at Vulcan philosophy. Spock is supposed to buy into the logic thing on its own merits, not simply as a way to handle PTSD. So this is kind of a bastardization of the character and a reluctance on JJ's part to fully embrace the philosophy as a valid way of life (at least for some).

Kirk accepted Spock despite Spock's seeming indifference. Ultimately Spock having a different way of looking at the world plays into the diversity theme, and to open people's minds about other ways of thinking. But JJ kind of wants characters (like Uhura, by nagging) or situations (like Kirk's death) to show Spock the error of his ways. The whole idea of Spock is that he can be seemingly unemotional AND a good person at the same time, even a good friend. There's nothing wrong or broken about him. You just have to understand him on his own wavelength--without needing to actually see him cry or laugh. So I think JJ sees Spock's logic as a character flaw rather than a virtue or a point of diversity.

Spock Prime's entire story arc in TOS was realizing that fully embracing the Vulcan way of life was not necessarily a valid way of life (any more than a life can be led on pure emotion with no logic). Remember, in his last line in a TOS movie, he said Kirk should essentially tell Starfleet to go to hell. Spock Prime's life was a journey about finding a comfortable equilibrium between a philosophy that eschews emotion, and his growing realization that there is a place for emotions in life. Spock Prime was as "emotionally compromised" by the loss of Vulcan as Spock was.

Also, as one reviewer of STID put it, Spock's choice to hold back his emotions is similar to many holocaust survivors who simply choose numbness as a survival strategy. Of course, denying one's true feelings is not logical. Nor is it healthy, mentally or physically. This Spock, having lived through the circumstances he has lived through, has to find his own equilibrium between logic and emotion. Right now, I'd say he's emotionally about like the Spock Prime who smiled and openly marveled at the plants in "The Cage" and later shouted, "THE WOMEN!"

 

[Cinema Geekly]

I had also heard that it was a word-for-word retread. I don't know about all of you guys, but I have an excellent memory. I had every single line from every Trek movie memorized when I was like 10 years old. I could recite them for you, if you asked me to. And this scene was NOT a word for word remake. Actually, I thought it was quite subtle, as far as the dialogue is concerned. Are there some direct quotes? Yes. But they are used apporpriately.

THIS! I even went back and watch the WOK scene just to make sure I wasn't the crazy person.

Everything Simon Pegg says is pretty much word-for-word what Jimmy Doohan says in WoK (and of course Kirk punching him out ala Spock knocking out McCoy) but after that while the scene itself harkened back to WoK it was by no means word for word and how could it be?

After all Bob Orci himself said that those were a different Kirk and Spock at a different point in their relationship, he said the goals here was the spark that relationship.

In fact from here on out it would be reasonable to expect Krik and Spock to be legit best friends.

 

[Captain Atkin]

The only scene I didn't like in the film was when Spock screamed out Khan's name. I would love to see those 10 seconds trimmed from the DVD release. Other than that, I thought the film was great, and I bought Spock being so upset at the death of his best friend, that he would chase down Khan.

 

[mos6507]

Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

Spock Prime's entire story arc in TOS was realizing that fully embracing the Vulcan way of life was not necessarily a valid way of life (any more than a life can be led on pure emotion with no logic). Remember, in his last line in a TOS movie, he said Kirk should essentially tell Starfleet to go to hell. Spock Prime's life was a journey about finding a comfortable equilibrium between a philosophy that eschews emotion, and his growing realization that there is a place for emotions in life. Spock Prime was as "emotionally compromised" by the loss of Vulcan as Spock was.

I totally get that, and Spock Prime in the JJ films is the most emotional classic Spock performance yet, because he's found that equilibrium, even moreso than in Unification I/II, and like many senior citizens, he just doesn't care how others think about him anymore.

I think starting Spock out cold and slowly having him settle into equilibrium is much more satisfying than starting him out wildly unstable and then rationalizing it as PTSD.

Also, as one reviewer of STID put it, Spock's choice to hold back his emotions is similar to many holocaust survivors who simply choose numbness as a survival strategy. Of course, denying one's true feelings is not logical.

That's an individual choice, one anyboy could make, but Vulcan logic is a philosophy and cultural norm, something he was indoctrinated into since birth, and something I'm sure his fellow Vulcans would want him to hold onto despite the destruction of their home-planet, in order to honor it. JJ took something that is a cultural norm and retconned it into a sort of Dr. Phil coping mechanism for PTSD. I understand JJ wants to make it more accessible, but by so doing he sidesteps the whole "new life and new civilizations" aspect of learning to understand the ways of other societies, not just other individuals, but entire other species--which Spock symbolizes (at least half-way).

Do I think emotional repression is healthy? Not necessarily, but I also understand that there is a whole school of stoicism out there and that a lot of eastern thought relating to letting go of attachment that has a lot going for it as far as avoiding a lot of the drama and suffering people wind up going through. What sometimes may seem like a weakness in Spock is at times his greatest strength. That's why he's such a good counter-point to the impulsiveness of Kirk.

By making Spock fly into a rage and chase down Khan, he basically becomes little more than Kirk at that point. The distinctiveness is lost. You could say that was just part of the role-reversal, but role-reversing like that is just a gimmicky stunt (maybe playing off the Kirk and Spock are a joint entity or lovers meme). Characters are allowed to change, but they should still remain true-to-self.

I'd say he's emotionally about like the Spock Prime who smiled and openly marveled at the plants in "The Cage" and later shouted, "THE WOMEN!"

Nimoy himself cited those examples as him finding the role, and that he cringes every time he sees them. You can retcon that to rationalize an unstable Spock, but I don't buy it.

If they wanted Spock to gradually become more emotionless, they would have written in that gradual progression rather than having a few outlier moments that had all but settled within a couple episodes.

 

[sj4iy]

Re: What did you think of the... er.. homage scene?

That's an individual choice, one anyboy could make, but Vulcan logic is a philosophy and cultural norm, something he was indoctrinated into since birth, and something I'm sure his fellow Vulcans would want him to hold onto despite the destruction of their home-planet, in order to honor it. JJ took something that is a cultural norm and retconned it into a sort of Dr. Phil coping mechanism for PTSD. I understand JJ wants to make it more accessible, but by so doing he sidesteps the whole "new life and new civilizations" aspect of learning to understand the ways of other societies, not just other individuals, but entire other species--which Spock symbolizes (at least half-way).

Do I think emotional repression is healthy? Not necessarily, but I also understand that there is a whole school of stoicism out there and that a lot of eastern thought relating to letting go of attachment that has a lot going for it as far as avoiding a lot of the drama and suffering people wind up going through. What sometimes may seem like a weakness in Spock is at times his greatest strength. That's why he's such a good counter-point to the impulsiveness of Kirk.

By making Spock fly into a rage and chase down Khan, he basically becomes little more than Kirk at that point. The distinctiveness is lost. You could say that was just part of the role-reversal, but role-reversing like that is just a gimmicky stunt (maybe playing off the Kirk and Spock are a joint entity or lovers meme). Characters are allowed to change, but they should still remain true-to-self.

He's learning more about being human in this timeline, though. He is half-human, after all. His older self told him to do what he felt was right, what he wanted to do. He didn't have that freedom in the last timeline until he was much older. I see no problem with him having trouble controlling his emotions after the horrific things that have happened to him, even if he normally conceals it.

 

[Cadet49]

Obvious spoilers below.

I thought it was great and touching when I first saw the movie. Walking away from the film, I was happy that it turned out to be a fun and energetic homage to star trek II. Then I started actually thinking about it a little.

Seriously... uh... why did he even say that? Why did they reenact that iconic scene motion for motion? He's only known Kirk for a year. The whole damn point of the original scene in Wrath of Khan was to teach Kirk a lesson that its time to stop cheating death and start facing the consequences. This time they barley know each other and the situation is reversed and there is literally no reason for the scene. Its just a reenactment for the sake of a reenactment. There's no soul, no reason, no nothing. Its a lifeless shell. When he says, "Khan!!" its almost like he's INSULTING star trek because of this. Its by far THE worst thing about the entire reboot.

This isn't even a matter of being overcritical, its glaringly obvious and almost painful. Oh yeah... what did you think? What are your opinions? I think I've went on with mine long enough.

Personally, I didn't think that scene worked at all, dramatically. In Wrath of Khan, it was heartbreaking because of the characters' long years together, and all the dangers they had survived. Spock's reaction felt forced in this version, and when he screamed out that famous phrase, many people in tge theatre I was in actually started laughing, which is not the reaction I think the screenwriters wanted. I think they wanted it to be a "tip of the hat" to the original film, but personally, it took me right out of the emotion of the scene with that line - it would have been better if they found another place to put that line elsewhere in the film...

I think, if they had to do this scene, it would have been more effective if

Spoiler: Engine Room

Spock had been the one who had been injured, with Kirk reacting with that famous line - I think that would have made the final confrontation with the villain much more poigniant to the audience, with the concept of "perhaps it is a certain amount of destiny involved".

 

[sj4iy]

I think, if they had to do this scene, it would have been more effective if

Spoiler: Engine Room

Spock had been the one who had been injured, with Kirk reacting with that famous line - I think that would have made the final confrontation with the villain much more poigniant to the audience, with the concept of "perhaps it is a certain amount of destiny involved".

I disagree, and I think it would have been more controversial than how they did it. I like the echoes of that scene without flat-out copying it. It also wouldn't have made sense, because Kirk already saved Spock in the film, and Spock couldn't understand why until he was in the same situation as Kirk.

 

[C.E. Evans]

A case could be made that Spock has lost so much already that the loss of another person close to him was his breaking point. Even though this crew has only been together presumably a year, that's long enough for Kirk and Spock to have forged a bond even if the parameters of it are still be defined by both.

 

[datalogan]

A case could be made that Spock has lost so much already that the loss of another person close to him was his breaking point.

Good point.

 

[ConRefit79]

Didn't work for me. I still get choked up when I see that scene in TWOK. But these guys are not friends. At least not at that level. Now, Pike and Kirk makes sense in this movie. That's why I thought it would mean more if Pike died in there or wound up like we see him in TOS.

 

[sj4iy]

Didn't work for me. I still get choked up when I see that scene in TWOK. But these guys are not friends. At least not at that level. Now, Pike and Kirk makes sense in this movie. That's why I thought it would mean more if Pike died in there or wound up like we see him in TOS.

You couldn't tell how close they were during this movie? Many one-off movies manage to move two characters close together without even having the advantage of a tv series- it doesn't mean that those movies can't have emotional death scenes just because they've only been together for that one movie. We see in the very beginning with Kirk wouldn't allow Spock to die by risking his ship to save him that they were best friends. After that, Spock was concerned about Kirk and trying to talk him into doing the right thing, and finally convinces him. I don't think anyone else does that.

 

[Amaris]

Didn't work for me. I still get choked up when I see that scene in TWOK. But these guys are not friends. At least not at that level. Now, Pike and Kirk makes sense in this movie. That's why I thought it would mean more if Pike died in there or wound up like we see him in TOS.

You couldn't tell how close they were during this movie? Many one-off movies manage to move two characters close together without even having the advantage of a tv series- it doesn't mean that those movies can't have emotional death scenes just because they've only been together for that one movie. We see in the very beginning with Kirk wouldn't allow Spock to die by risking his ship to save him that they were best friends. After that, Spock was concerned about Kirk and trying to talk him into doing the right thing, and finally convinces him. I don't think anyone else does that.

Yeah, I could see their friendship easily, and how deep it went. Just watching visual cues, you could pick up on it.

 

[ConRefit79]

Didn't work for me. I still get choked up when I see that scene in TWOK. But these guys are not friends. At least not at that level. Now, Pike and Kirk makes sense in this movie. That's why I thought it would mean more if Pike died in there or wound up like we see him in TOS.

You couldn't tell how close they were during this movie? Many one-off movies manage to move two characters close together without even having the advantage of a tv series- it doesn't mean that those movies can't have emotional death scenes just because they've only been together for that one movie. We see in the very beginning with Kirk wouldn't allow Spock to die by risking his ship to save him that they were best friends. After that, Spock was concerned about Kirk and trying to talk him into doing the right thing, and finally convinces him. I don't think anyone else does that.

Kirk broke the Prime Directive to save Spock, cause he thought the rules don't apply to him. That's not friendship. He just didn't want to lose anyone, cause he never wants to lose. He couldn't even admit to Pike he got his butt kicked in the first film.

Spock was doing his job as first officer. He could clearly see Kirk was blinded by anger and was going to make the mistake of killing Harrison against regs.

 

[Amaris]

Kirk broke the Prime Directive to save Spock, cause he thought the rules don't apply to him. That's not friendship. He just didn't want to lose anyone, cause he never wants to lose. He couldn't even admit to Pike he got his butt kicked in the first film.

Spock was doing his job as first officer. He could clearly see Kirk was blinded by anger and was going to make the mistake of killing Harrison against regs.

I would recommend a second viewing of the movie, because what you're talking about is addressed by the movie itself.

 

[ConRefit79]

Kirk broke the Prime Directive to save Spock, cause he thought the rules don't apply to him. That's not friendship. He just didn't want to lose anyone, cause he never wants to lose. He couldn't even admit to Pike he got his butt kicked in the first film.

Spock was doing his job as first officer. He could clearly see Kirk was blinded by anger and was going to make the mistake of killing Harrison against regs.

I would recommend a second viewing of the movie, because what you're talking about is addressed by the movie itself.

No. This movie will have to attract all the money from the precious newbies and those who like the new version. I'm done.

 

[sj4iy]

Kirk broke the Prime Directive to save Spock, cause he thought the rules don't apply to him. That's not friendship. He just didn't want to lose anyone, cause he never wants to lose. He couldn't even admit to Pike he got his butt kicked in the first film.

Spock was doing his job as first officer. He could clearly see Kirk was blinded by anger and was going to make the mistake of killing Harrison against regs.

I would recommend a second viewing of the movie, because what you're talking about is addressed by the movie itself.

No. This movie will have to attract all the money from the precious newbies and those who like the new version. I'm done.

Kirk even SAYS he did it because Spock was his friend and is upset during the movie when Spock doesn't realize it. Spock repeatedly tries to warn Kirk not to trust Khan, and the moment Kirk leaves the ship, he even contacts Spock Prime to find out how to defeat Khan. Don't spend your money if you don't want to, but I'm not a newbie. I am also not married to the original canon so much that I can't stand to see a valid change to the story and appreciate it.