What did you love or didn't love about TWOK

[Pauln6]

Likes:

1. Awesome score
2. Hammy yet inspiring villain
3. Saavik
4. Impressivley simple starship fights
5. Mid-life crisis sub-plot plays out perfectly
6. Death of Spock vies with death of Enterprise in TSFS as best Trek death ever.

Dislikes:
1. Chekov's reason for meeting Khan should have been precisely because he DIDN'T know him and wouldn't have known that he was in the system.
2. "If we go by the book..." Khan would need s**t for brains not to see through that obvious ruse.
3. Aforementioned idiocies - Kirk was a dumb ass not to raise shields sooner, McCoy was a dumb ass not to check for eels after being told about them etc.
4. No Chapel or Rand (although seeing Kyle instead was cool)
5. No alien crew.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I liked the overall theme of Kirk coming face to face with his shortcomings. I liked Kirstie Alley. Loved Montalban. Lots of things.

Least favorite things...I dunno. Certainly it's Montalban's performance that makes Khan interesting, moreso than the script. This version of the character, while dramatically useful and understandable, is less magnetic and intriguing a guy than he was in "Space Seed."

 

[Pauln6]

I liked the overall theme of Kirk coming face to face with his shortcomings. I liked Kirstie Alley. Loved Montalban. Lots of things.

Least favorite things...I dunno. Certainly it's Montalban's performance that makes Khan interesting, moreso than the script. This version of the character, while dramatically useful and understandable, is less magnetic and intriguing a guy than he was in "Space Seed."

That's true. I hope if they re-image him for NuTrek they go for the smarmy, magneitc, manipulative version rather than the Nero-lite version.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

...rather than the Nero-lite version.

You just elevated Nero above Khan. Oops!

 

[Pauln6]

...rather than the Nero-lite version.

You just elevated Nero above Khan. Oops!

KHAAAAAAAAAN!

What I meant was lite in terms of the amount of crazy. Even TWoK Khan was more rational than Nero.

 

[sonak]

Likes:

1. The Kobayashi Maru simulation
2. Kirstie Alley as Saavik
3. The death scene at the end is very well done. Both Nimoy and Shatner are amazing here
4. The way the "aging issue" is dealt with so sympathetically and realistically
5. Spock's inner conflict is resolved and he's at peace with who he is

Dislikes

1. The "idiot plot" stuff:

-Kirk leaving shields down FOR NO REASON
-Khan not figuring out Kirk's ridiculously obvious "code." Hours would seem like days, indeed
-Not knowing what system Khan is in or that the planets had realigned

2. Not enough stuff for the supporting cast to do, with the exception of Chekov



All around, a great movie, either my favorite of the Trek film series, or Star Trek VI, depending on mood

 

[Xavier_Storma]

I did not like Khan. For me he was always a one-dimensonal villain, like from a comic book. Pure evil just for the sake of being evil. Compared to Chang, Sybok, Soran, Ru'Afo, the Borg and Shinzon, he was extremely flat as a character. I never understood the fascination with this character. Yes Richardo Montablan did a good job (he was a superb actor) but there have been so many better bad guy out there...
But that's just my opinion.

I loved the SFX (still do, although they really look dated), but no CGI is going to be able to beat the love of detailed applied to those filming models.
To date the most convincing effects are featured in GENERATIONS and FIRST CONTACT. A healthy balance between models and CGI, which looks just gorgeous!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Well, as he was portrayed in the original episode he was one of the most dimensional "villains" Trek ever had - much more interesting than, for example, Chang, Sybok, Soran, Ru'Afo, the Borg, or definitely Shinzon or Nero. He came across as a charismatic and powerful leader, probably actually vastly superior to Kirk in almost every respect. For the purposes of the movie, though, he was simplified to be an obsessed seeker of revenge who was so tunnel-visioned that he could be baited, angered and tricked into some foolish things.

 

[kkozoriz1]

The problem with the code is that the audience has to get it while the bad guy (and Saavik) don't.

 

[RyuRoots]

He came across as a charismatic and powerful leader, probably actually vastly superior to Kirk in almost every respect. For the purposes of the movie, though, he was simplified to be an obsessed seeker of revenge who was so tunnel-visioned that he could be baited, angered and tricked into some foolish things.

I very strongly disagree. In Space Seed he, frankly, came across as a creepy jerk with no ability to plan in the long-term whose only strengths were physical ability and happening to have loyal underlings at his disposal. In TWOK, he was...exactly the same. Oh, except for having slugs at his disposal. EEEEEEVIIIIIIL slugs, of course.

I hated Alley as Saavik (Curtis was a MASSIVE improvement in every conceivable respect)

Orac Zen hit a lot of the plot stupidity on the first page that I take issue with, but I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

I also think it bears mention that I died laughing the first time I saw TWOK and got to the "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" bit. It's just so wonderfully unintentionally hilarious. Shatner was probably picking scenery out of his teeth for months.

As for what I liked...I really liked the glasses scenes, and the uniforms that would be used from here through the prologue of GEN are a marked improvement from the TMP uniforms. That's about it though.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

He came across as a charismatic and powerful leader, probably actually vastly superior to Kirk in almost every respect. For the purposes of the movie, though, he was simplified to be an obsessed seeker of revenge who was so tunnel-visioned that he could be baited, angered and tricked into some foolish things.

I very strongly disagree. In Space Seed he, frankly, came across as a creepy jerk with no ability to plan in the long-term whose only strengths were physical ability and happening to have loyal underlings at his disposal.

Yeah, whatever.

How did you figure, BTW, that he came to "happen to have loyal underlings at his disposal?"

I'm sure a lot of "creepy jerks" with "no ability to plan" etc would like to figure that one out.

Watch it again.

 

[RyuRoots]

He came across as a charismatic and powerful leader, probably actually vastly superior to Kirk in almost every respect. For the purposes of the movie, though, he was simplified to be an obsessed seeker of revenge who was so tunnel-visioned that he could be baited, angered and tricked into some foolish things.

I very strongly disagree. In Space Seed he, frankly, came across as a creepy jerk with no ability to plan in the long-term whose only strengths were physical ability and happening to have loyal underlings at his disposal.

Yeah, whatever.

How did you figure, BTW, that he came to "happen to have loyal underlings at his disposal?"

I'm sure a lot of "creepy jerks" with "no ability to plan" etc would like to figure that one out.

Watch it again.

Because the plot TOLD US that he was charismatic and a good leader, and required him to have underlings to take over the ship.

And frankly, no, I'd rather not as I thought it was a pretty bad episode.

 

[Too Much Fun]

It's interesting to me that all this criticism of Khan should come up. I was about to point out that I forgot to mention how much my re-watch reminded me of his significant contribution to the movie's popularity. I can completely understand and even agree a little with the criticisms of him as a one-dimensional and easily fooled villain, but the fact is, he's just so damn entertaining.

I've seen a lot of talk about how one of the things that has hurt recent Star Trek films has been the way producers/directors/writers seem to insist on always including a villain type cut from the same mould as him. There's always a guy who is bitter because of some past experience, who may or may not hold a grudge against a main character. Soren, Ru'afo, Shinzon, and Nero are all examples, and they all suck, partially because while they adhere to the Khan formula, none of them are played or written with the same relish.

This is the curse of Khan. I wish the filmmakers would realize that following this villain formula isn't the key to success. The movie wasn't great simply because it had a passionate villain, it was a matter of the stars aligning as that particular actor played that particular character in a very particular way. I don't find Khan to be the most impressive villain, but he's just so enjoyable to watch on many different levels, whether you take him seriously or (like me) appreciate him on a more campy level. I got a good laugh out of some of his line readings like, "buried alive, BURIED ALIVE" with that theatrical whisper the second time. Gene Rodenberry was right when he said Khan was a lot cheesier in the movie than he was in the episode he originated in, yet Montalban "saved their ass" because he made every line work. That "he tasks me" bit was ridiculous too, but Montalban enunciated so hilariously, you gotta love it.

There are many crowd-pleasing things in "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" that can inspire people to overlook its flaws and embrace it, and I think Khan is one of the biggest. Evidently, people are less inclined to nitpick the plausibility of the villain when he makes them smile as much as Khan does.

 

[Saito S]

I'm with RyuRoots when it comes to Khan himself, and Space Seed. What happened between Khan and McGivers said more to me about deficiencies in her character (and the general problems TOS had when it came to female characters) than it did about Khan's supposed charisma.

As for TWOK itself... I always found it very overrated, for reasons that have already been hammered quite well by others, most notably RyuRoots and Orac Zen (in that 2009 post back on page 1 ). Among all eleven Trek movies, it sits in the lower portion of my best-to-worst list. One thing that particularly made me tear my hair out is the idiocy with the shields. Kirk just refuses to order shields up, as the Reliant inches closer and closer, radio silent. Worse still, the Admiral himself notes "This is damned peculiar..." at one point, indicating that he himself is uneasy about what's going on, yet STILL no shields!? Then, finally, when Khan gives the order to fire, Kirk gives the order for shields, far, far too late, resulting in severe damage to the Enterprise and quite possibly the deaths of several cadets right off the bat.

Smooth, Admiral. Smooth.

As for the music... maybe "dull" isn't the right word, because - as someone pointed out while defending the score (again, though, I think that was back in 2009... this has become some strange multi-era thread) - it's certainly not lacking in intensity. That said, I did find it very uninteresting, and honestly sorta cheesy. That main theme (or some slight variant of it) kept playing over and over throughout the entire "Enterprise tries to flee from soon-to-be-detonating Genesis Device" scene, and it distracted me to the point of laughter after a while.

 

[sonak]

The "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan" line gets a lot of flak, but in the context of the movie, he's trying to play up the rage to sell it to Khan, who's listening in at the time, because Kirk knows he already has a plan in place with Spock at that time.

So had it been played straight, yes it would've been cheesy. It works(IMHO) if you realize that he's trying to convince Khan that he's pissed off.

 

[sonak]

He came across as a charismatic and powerful leader, probably actually vastly superior to Kirk in almost every respect. For the purposes of the movie, though, he was simplified to be an obsessed seeker of revenge who was so tunnel-visioned that he could be baited, angered and tricked into some foolish things.

I very strongly disagree. In Space Seed he, frankly, came across as a creepy jerk with no ability to plan in the long-term whose only strengths were physical ability and happening to have loyal underlings at his disposal. In TWOK, he was...exactly the same. Oh, except for having slugs at his disposal. EEEEEEVIIIIIIL slugs, of course.

I hated Alley as Saavik (Curtis was a MASSIVE improvement in every conceivable respect)

Orac Zen hit a lot of the plot stupidity on the first page that I take issue with, but I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

I also think it bears mention that I died laughing the first time I saw TWOK and got to the "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAN!" bit. It's just so wonderfully unintentionally hilarious. Shatner was probably picking scenery out of his teeth for months.

As for what I liked...I really liked the glasses scenes, and the uniforms that would be used from here through the prologue of GEN are a marked improvement from the TMP uniforms. That's about it though.

It's amazing to me that you could have actually preferred Robin Curtis' Saavik to Kirstie Alley's, unless you're trying to be controversial or contrarian or something.

 

[RyuRoots]

The "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan" line gets a lot of flak, but in the context of the movie, he's trying to play up the rage to sell it to Khan, who's listening in at the time, because Kirk knows he already has a plan in place with Spock at that time.

So had it been played straight, yes it would've been cheesy. It works(IMHO) if you realize that he's trying to convince Khan that he's pissed off.

No, I'm perfectly aware of what was happening. I still think it's laughable.

It's amazing to me that you could have actually preferred Robin Curtis' Saavik to Kirstie Alley's, unless you're trying to be controversial or contrarian or something.

It's amazing to me that you could have actually preferred Kirstie Alley's Saavik to Robin Curtis', unless you're trying to be contrarian or something.

 

[Pauln6]

The problem with the code is that the audience has to get it while the bad guy (and Saavik) don't.

But cripes - how dumb do they think their audience is? If they had made it more subtle those audience members who spotted it would feel clever while those that didn't would be impressed with Spock's subterfuge. As it is the scene makes Spock look dumb for being so obvious and Saavik and Khan look REALLY dumb for not spotting it.

Something like, "I shall go by the book like Lieutenant Saavik and review the repairs on an hourly basis. Blah blah repair days. If we go outside the regulations this will allow me to reduce these estimates but I am unwilling to specify any adjusted repair period at this juncture. By the book, Admiral."

More subtle yes, possibly incomprehensible to the audience, but at least the characters appear smarter.

 

[sonak]

Yeah, I think there's a movie or T.V. writer who said something like "if the plot requires the characters to be stupid in order to work, then there's something wrong with the plot."

(unless of course, your show or movie has or is about genuinely stupid characters, but I don't think that's supposed to be the case here).

 

[sonak]

The "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan" line gets a lot of flak, but in the context of the movie, he's trying to play up the rage to sell it to Khan, who's listening in at the time, because Kirk knows he already has a plan in place with Spock at that time.

So had it been played straight, yes it would've been cheesy. It works(IMHO) if you realize that he's trying to convince Khan that he's pissed off.

No, I'm perfectly aware of what was happening. I still think it's laughable.

It's amazing to me that you could have actually preferred Robin Curtis' Saavik to Kirstie Alley's, unless you're trying to be controversial or contrarian or something.

It's amazing to me that you could have actually preferred Kirstie Alley's Saavik to Robin Curtis', unless you're trying to be contrarian or something.

OK, less rudely: What about Robin Curtis' performance did you prefer to Kirstie Alley's?