What did you love or didn't love about TWOK

I really liked that they seemed to be bringing in some new characters, such as Saavik and even David.

I didn't like that they were basically discarded after the next film.

I liked the whole sub-plot of Kirk facing his midlife crisis. That this happened while all these elements of his past were forcing their way into his life, IMHO, made for a cohesive script which had a lot of the heart that I feel was missing from TMP.

I liked the cameo by Kyle.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can understand that you don't like the score. But dull seems to be the entirely wrong word to criticize Horner's music, which is certainly not lacking in intensity.

But until then I'll stick with, uh..."nonce sense." It's spelled like that, but it's actually pronounced "throatwobbler mangrove."

 

Why else wouldn't they like it? Audiences can be forgiving or a bad script or bad acting or bad special effects if the story is stong enough. The general public want bad-guy-threatening-Earth Trek movies.

 

Going back to TWOK though, I always found the bit when Kirk and co. are beamed back from the Genesis cave to be really weird... like they were having a conversation mid-beam out.

 

Shoddy visual effects? A thinly-characterized villain? A complete overuse of sets from Star Trek The Next Generation? Badly-timed humor?

You honestly believe that audiences rejected Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was about 'boldly going where no man has gone before?' Not to mention that, indeed, the episode (er, movie) is entirely driven by the villain of the week.

 

He wasn't killing people and/or threatening Earth though. And yes, I think the fact that is was 'boldly going' had a lot to do with why people (not Trekkies) didn't like it. Those divs like badly timed humour (look at Scotty in the water pipes in Trek XI) and they couldn't care less about the re-use of sets.

 

God no. The script, acting and effects make a movie. A movie cannot be defended just because it has a good idea; I will take a pedestrian idea executed well over an unusual idea executed poorly.

 

The last time I watched it, the only thing that I found very disappointing was the special effects during the battle in the Nebula with Khan. The tension and interaction in that scene was excellent, even though Khan and Kirk weren't confronting each other face to face in person, but the visuals of what was going on outside of the ships undercut the effectiveness of the sequence. I find all the stuff between the ships in that sequence a little plodding and weak now. Fortunately the raw emotional power of the scene between Spock and Kirk (and the funeral) once that battle ends gets me back into the movie big time and finishes it beautifully, and I'm sure it always will.

 

Well, to each their own. I personally found that aspect very appealing. I've always found Star Trek to be at its worst when dealing with the "boldly go where no one has gone before" theme. A 22nd-24th century Age of Exploration was never appealing to me, personally.

Star Trek has always been at its best when dealing with other things. TOS in "Journey to Babel" and "Amok Time." TNG in "The Best of Both Worlds" and "The Defector." DS9 in "In the Pale Moonlight," "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light," and "Rapture." VOY in "Scorpion" and "Message in a Bottle." ENT in "The Forge/Awakening/Kir'Shara" and "Babel One/United/The Aenar." All of these episodes build upon the universe that's already been established by previous episodes. Also, they deal with military and/or diplomatic themes.

TWOK was another one of these other themed entries into the canon. It focused on a military threat and built up the characters based upon previously established entries. I liked that.

 

Which was kinda my point.

 

Too much to list about what I liked about the film. As for my dislikes, the only things are Kirk not raising shields during the first encoutner with Reliant (it made him look kinda bad) and Kirk and Khan not meeting face to face (and having another fight scene).

 

Loved: Ricardo Montalban's performance as Khan. (His ripped shirt was a delightful bonus!)

Hated: Watching Spock die.

 

I have always felt the sound quality of the dialogue was the weakest of all the Trek films in a technical sense.

Mainly Shatner's lines but also stuff like Spock's "Their coil emissions are nominal" and "We are right to invoke logic" lacked a certain crispness. I don't like the clarity of McCoy's "According to myth the Earth was created in six days" and "Its new matrix?!".

Shatner's mash potato mouth

"up arms"
"I told Starfleet all we had was a boatload of cadets"
"duty officer so note in the ship's log I am taking command..."
"retinox-5"
"Phasers starboard!"

 

Shatner doing the BrandoSlurring really messed with me when I saw the movie. When he visits Spock's quarters, I thought he said, "I wouldn't have presumed after vger" when he says "I wouldn't have presumed to debate you" which made Spock's reply seem all wrong and distracted me away from the whole point of the scene.

I've never thought of it as having sub-par sound recording, but that is an area I've never studied; I really wonder if the sound crew was a lower-rung bunch. While the bridge was problematic soundwise (something they knew back in the phase 2 days when Glen Glenn Sound checked it out), the other sets shouldn't have had such issues.

I think Spock's lines you cite are actually 'their coil emissions are normal' and 'if I were to invoke logic' ... either that or I've misheard them over a hundred times by now!

 

I love it lots of action! Best of the movies

 

The Star Trek II-IV "trilogy" are my absolute favorite movies of all of the original TOS-era and TWOK was as flawless of a movie as the franchise ever got- the ESB of the Star Trek franchise IMHO.
There were, as some other people mentioned, some continuity issues and Chekov's *memory* of Khan (and his memory of Chekov) when Chekov does not appear in "Space Seed" but just about every series/movie has continuity issues of some sort and in most cases I tend to overlook them if they're not TOO glaring. My only other *complaint* about TWOK and especially TSFS is that the main characters just spent a LOT of time moping about growing older and they were fairly "dark" movies. I was so glad that they lightened the mood considerably in the final three movies, particularly in TVH. I understand, however, that TWOK and TSFS did deal with some pretty weighty subject material- mortality, death, revenge, family reconciliation, so I wouldn't say that that caused me to like them any less- you just really need to be in the right frame of mind to enjoy them because they are rather "heavy" subject-wise.

 

I just watched this again. Two things that are guaranteed to happen any time that I watch it are that 1) I'll realize new things about it, and 2) the ending will always affect me the same positive way. I think those are some of the marks of a great movie. Not all of the things I realize are good, though.

I think about 90% of the dialog in the movie was just superb, but McCoy was way over-the-top in that scene where he, Kirk, and Spock are discussing Genesis. It was obvious the writers were just trying to force an argument between he and Spock to be true to the characters, but it wasn't natural. He was barely making a point with his flimsy words there. Thankfully, all of his other lines were natural and/or hilarious. Similarly, I think Shatner was at his most restrained throughout the movie, except when he gave us good ol' hammy Kirk when he was trying to provoke Khan. In that case I didn't mind the theatrics, though, because they made the scene campy in the best and most memorable way.

What I noticed most about the movie this time is how little happens in it. That sounds like a criticism, but I like it for that. It's very economical. If you break down the actual major events, it's not much more than:

1) Saavik takes test
2) Chekov and Terrell go to planet
3) Khan hijacks ship
4) Enterprise goes to space station
5) Khan's ship fights Kirk's ship (twice)

And the rest is mostly just conversations between characters, aside from the eel business. When I realized this, part of me thought, 'that's it?', but another part of me also thought, this is one of those examples of 'less is more'. It's like the complaint I keep making about "The Dark Knight" (although I like it a lot overall) - so many movies these days seem to cram so much unnecessary story into themselves in order to feel 'epic', it's refreshing to watch a movie that wrings drama more out of characterizations than events.

I didn't find a lot of the major events so exciting or enthralling as conversations between characters, and that happens a lot with good Star Trek episodes and movies. I think two of the biggest reasons why this movie so often wins 'Best Star Trek movie' polls is because the strength of the ending and dialog compel them to forget about or ignore a big flaw in it.

As the years pass and I watch this movie more times, the final battle between the Enterprise and the Reliant in the nebula becomes less and less impressive. This was the first time that, while I watched it, I couldn't stop thinking I was just watching models explode. I can no longer suspend my disbelief. The movie is running so smoothly for such a long time, and then it kinda jumps the rails with some really shoddy special effects in that scene. It's surprising, because I found the rest of the film quite visually impressive. For example, I love that iconic bathed-in-light silhouette hero shot that Kirk is introduced with.

I bet it's easy for a lot of people to overlook that silly battle because it leads to the Spock and Kirk farewell scene, the funeral, and Kirk's conversation with Bones and Dr. Marcus on the bridge, which are a trifecta of awesome. I keep expecting to watch those three scenes one day and just not be emotionally affected anymore. How could I be when I've seen this movie so many times and own "Star Trek IV", which means I know Spock will be seen again in another Star Trek movie? It is not logical! And yet that stuff makes me tear up any time.

I think Shatner saying "human", with that hesitation from a lump in his throat, is the finest acting he's ever done. When you add two equally powerful renditions of "Amazing Grace" to that, I can't stop the waterworks. While I think the movie stumbles big time with that final battle in the nebula (except for Khan's dialog there, which is a blast to hear), it has maybe the best recovery from a weak scene ever with everything from Kirk running down to engineering until the final shot of the movie.

I like "Star Trek: First Contact" more overall because there isn't a single moment of that movie I don't enjoy, but I only like this one marginally less because a few rather limp minutes of starships firing at each other don't matter much when everything before and after is so stellar.

 

I was cool until Kirk chokes up. Then it was Niagra Falls, baby...

 

I generally liked TWOK, although I would tend to agree with Orac Zen on it's being overrated.

I loved the character of Saavik as played by Kirstie Alley. It's a pity she didn't do TSFS as well.

I also liked the middle age crisis theme. It was a realistic presentation of Kirk and I found it refreshing to see a vulnerable side to him.

Spock as Captain of the Enterprise absolutely rocked. Too bad it didn't last...

What I didn't find that appealing was Khan himself. Yes, he was a great villain, but I found him too one-dimensional and self-contradictory. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that a 'superior' human would have the capacity to look past his desire for revenge and just take his chance for a better life when he finally escapes from Ceti Alpha V? I understand that he's pissed off at Kirk, but wouldn't a man with a superior intellect have realized that pure revenge wasn't going to get him anything?

Now, there's also the matter of Spock's death, which I both love and hate. It's essential for the power of the movie, it's a riveting scene that made me cry the last time I watched it, but I'm not sure I like what it says. The way I interpret it is this: you have Spock who's a monument of honesty and integrity and does the right thing for his crewmates. Then you have Kirk, who very selfishly cheats his Kobayashi Maru test and generally isn't bothered by circumventing rules every now and then. When Spock is faced with his own Kobayashi Maru, he remains true to himself and dies. What this says to me is: you cheat, you live, you play fair, you die. Somehow that doesn't seem fair. And I believe Kirk realizes that when he says, '"I've never faced death, I've cheated it" or something like that. Unfortunately, that's how things go in real life as well, but it still doesn't make it fair.

Oh, and again, I would have to agree with Orac Zen: I didn't dig the score either. I thought the one for TSFS was much better.