What art thee saying?

[Christopher]

Aha...

For religious reasons, the Quakers also retained the familiar forms, though generally in such a way that thee was used in all cases, along with the third person of the verb (thee has where grammar would dictate thou hast), and they brought it to America, where it was current in entire neighborhoods of Philadelphia till the 1890s and in some farms in the hinterland for perhaps another generation after that.

So T'Pau must've been a Quaker! Or perhaps Theodore Sturgeon got it from them...?

 

[Plum]

I seem to recall there actually isn't any real order to how "old english" was spoken. The few old texts I've seen only go to show the language was very fluid (and Monks were making it up while drunk). Thee and Thou mean the same thing and were used interchangeably as far as I recall. Now, the "King's English" might be a whole other magilla, I don't know.

I don't see T'Pau as having said things incorrectly somehow. Though I'm sure Theodore Sturgeon didn't care, if he did write it that way.

 

[A beaker full of death]

We're not talking about old English. We're not even talking about middle English.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Bones said:
Youse guys should read this interesting article on the evolving use of 'thee' and 'thou': http://www.etymonline.com/columns/thee.htm

It is interesting. As I suspected, it points out the distinctive abuse of "thee" by the Quakers only.

 

[MacLeod]

The useage seemed fine to me, from what I recall of the line, but words come and go in useage and some regions retain words whilst others drop their use.

 

[Deleted 2]

Interesting. I'd always assumed that thou was a formal way of addressing someone. Probably because Dutch Bible translations invariably use the formal pronoun.

 

[Plum]

A beaker full of death said:
We're not talking about old English. We're not even talking about middle English.

That's why I put old english in quotes, I actually don't know what the right term is. Help?

 

[A beaker full of death]

^ Sure. The lines are blurry, of course, and the history is really far more complex than this, but old English, largely derived from German, is considered to be pretty much the English language of the dark ages. Beowulf is in old English. It's utterly incomprehensible to someone who hasn't studied it.

Middle English came around the start of the middle ages. It's the language of the Canterbury Tales. Someone with a solid knowledge of modern English can probably follow most of it by sounding out the words and being very patient. A knowledge of German and some Romance language will definitely help.

Jacobean and Elizabethan English is basically modern English, even though the thees, thous and dosts have fallen out of use. But thee and thou are specific conjugations and are not interchangeable.

Spelling, on the other hand, was a crapshoot until VERY recently.

 

[comsol]

A beaker full of death said:
^ Sure. The lines are blurry, of course, and the history is really far more complex than this, but old English, largely derived from German, is considered to be pretty much the English language of the dark ages. Beowulf is in old English. It's utterly incomprehensible to someone who hasn't studied it.

Middle English came around the start of the middle ages. It's the language of the Canterbury Tales. Someone with a solid knowledge of modern English can probably follow most of it by sounding out the words and being very patient. A knowledge of German and some Romance language will definitely help.

Jacobean and Elizabethan English is basically modern English, even though the thees, thous and dosts have fallen out of use. But thee and thou are specific conjugations and are not interchangeable.

Spelling, on the other hand, was a crapshoot until VERY recently.

On the internet, spelling is still a crapshoot.

 

[Photoman15]

She's Vulcan. Why does anyone assume their grammatical syntax and uses are exactly the same as Terrans?

 

[seigezunt]

A beaker full of death said:
Anyone else bugged by the misuse of the word "thee" in Amok Time (and this thread title)? First, the word should have been "thou." Second, since presumably T'Pau was trying to speak formally, it should have been "you."

Yes, it always bugged me too.

But then I always forgave her. What an accent! I always thought T'pau and Shras would make a great couple...

 

[cooleddie74]

What ended up bugging me more was that the older, more regal T'Pau from TOS had the accent while her much younger self from the Kir'shara trilogy on ENTERPRISE didn't and spoke like everyone else. I guess after the mid-to-late 22nd century changes brought about by the acceptance of mind melds and the teachings of the Kir'shara, she adopted a more refined and regal posture and tone since she had become so revered and beloved by her fellow Vulcans for all she had done for their society.

 

[Christopher]

Or, one could assume that the T'Pau in "Awakening/Kir'shara" is speaking Vulcan and having it translated into conventionally accented English, while the T'Pau of "Amok Time" is speaking in English for the benefit of Kirk and McCoy, but with a heavy Vulcan accent. Although it seems she'd be more likely to speak in Vulcan for a traditional Vulcan marriage ritual.

 

[A beaker full of death]

^ I always assumed she was meant to be speaking English.
The great Celia Lovsky, ladies and gentlemen. Married to Peter Lorre, if I recall correctly.

 

[Ronald Held]

I essentially agree with this possibility, that her conversations with Archer went through his UT.
Her conversions with Kirk and McCoy are untranslated, but she is speaking the Standard equivalent of Old High Vulcan.

 

[cooleddie74]

^
Entirely possible. A shame we never got any sort of in-universe explanation for the differences.

Of course, older T'Pau could also just have gotten a deeper and more "old lady" voice as she matured into her mid-100s and---with the combination of her rapidly advancing years and a conscious decision to sound more refined and regal since she held such a high and respected status among her people---ended up sounding the way she did by 2267.