What are your thoughts about seeing the prime universe again?

[Kevin Wolff]

I saw Nemesis twice at the theater, and I think it is the calling card for the tail end of the Berman years. Sheer mediocrity says it all.

It was agony. I still have nightmares about the Argo. Blame Data and John Logan (who was a TNG fan but didn't really know the show) who worked out the story together, and somehow someone at Paramount owed Stuart Baird a favor (True according to 50-yr mission) and that's how he got the gig. BUT it wasn't like any other better directors would have accepted at that point, and they did try first because Patrick insisted on it. It would have defaulted back to Frakes again which wouldn't have helped if Insurrection is any indication. All the worst Prime Trek movies had bad stories, and went wrong at the script stage. Unlike the JJverse where the best one had no comprehensible story at all ('09) but had the new character intros to carry the film.
This is where Hollywood fails to this day. If the script is bad, you hit the red button and stop the presses. You don't push ahead because you have a pre-sold release date. Money money money. I can't wait till we get to the 24th and money is gone.
Quark: I've come to pay my respects.
Zek: Well, then pay them!
[inserts latinum]

 

[Mudd]

Nemesis was not a favor to Baird, exactly - someone had made a commitment to him that in exchange for help with another project he'd be offered a major directing assignment.

Getting Trek was rather like being promised a Porsche and receiving a Yugo. He was not happy.

 

[mos6507]

It's some degree, but it isn't the cornerstone. The whole point of Star Trek was that humanity survived the constant threat of nuclear war and managed to come together.

Well, according to Space Seed, we had a nuclear war and just rebuilt.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

However, everything else (Cling-ots, Rommies, Borg, et all) were all portrayed very differently from series to series. They included them out of obligation but changed them to fit the needs/time/agenda. Some were changed so much that one can't help but wonder why they ever bothered maintaining the illusion of a single universe at all. And why this one wonders why Fuller continues to do it.

Quite the opposite. I find all these changes make it look even more like a real, "living, breathing", universe. Because changes like that happen in our real world as well. Are the U.S. the same world power they were 100–150 years ago? How many radical changes happened in Russia in the 20th century? Are the German and Japanese people the same (politically and ideologically) today as they were 80 years ago? (Thankfully not, quite the opposite.) Look at fashion. Were men (and women) wearing the same clothes in the 1950's as the men (and women!!!) of the 1960's? Or in the '70s and '80s? Of course not. So IMO changes are the hallmark of a singular universe and not the other way around.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Nemesis was not a favor to Baird, exactly - someone had made a commitment to him that in exchange for help with another project he'd be offered a major directing assignment.

Getting Trek was rather like being promised a Porsche and receiving a Yugo. He was not happy.

None the less, he could could have done as his successors and taken it down to the shop and trick it out.

Granted, AbLins had more cash to work with, but Baird could have at least gone with a simple rim 'n trim. Instead he just rolled his eyes and drove the thing into the swamp.

And even if he didn't like what he had to work with, he could have done what Meyer did and pulled out his directors' license and said to Berman, "I'm driving this shit," and made it his own.

It's really too bad because, with a few small adjustments, NEM could have been a really good film, even with a Logan script.

Quite the opposite. I find all these changes make it look even more like a real, "living, breathing", universe. Because changes like that happen in our real world as well. Are the U.S. the same world power they were 100–150 years ago? How many radical changes happened in Russia in the 20th century? Are the German and Japanese people the same (politically and ideologically) today as they were 80 years ago? (Thankfully not, quite the opposite.) Look at fashion. Were men (and women) wearing the same clothes in the 1950's as the men (and women!!!) of the 1960's? Or in the '70s and '80s? Of course not. So IMO changes are the hallmark of a singular universe and not the other way around.

Except Star Trek lives in a fantasy bubble. Everything else about it suggests so, nor was this the writers' intent. Besides, if what you're suggesting were true, such stylistic changes (for, say, Klingons) wouldn't happen between season seven of TNG and season four of DSN.

The straws are over by the ketchup.

 

[Mudd]

Granted, AbLins had more cash to work with, but Baird could have at least gone with a simple rim 'n trim. Instead he just rolled his eyes and drove the thing into the swamp.

And even if he didn't like what he had to work with, he could have done what Meyer did and pulled out his directors' license and said to Berman, "I'm driving this shit," and made it his own.

I don't know that either of those things is true. They both depend upon the producers.

Of course, much of what people complain about when they complain about Nemesis was, by various accounts, Baird's attempts to "make it his own."

 

[Mr Awe]

None the less, he could could have done as his successors and taken it down to the shop and trick it out.

Granted, AbLins had more cash to work with, but Baird could have at least gone with a simple rim 'n trim. Instead he just rolled his eyes and drove the thing into the swamp.

And even if he didn't like what he had to work with, he could have done what Meyer did and pulled out his directors' license and said to Berman, "I'm driving this shit," and made it his own.

Wow, I largely agree with you on this point! It's been awhile since I've seen NEM but the directing was not bad per se. But, yes, he could have done more. I think there was a lot of promise to NEM but it was like they were working from a rough draft rather than a polished final script.

Except Star Trek lives in a fantasy bubble. .

Most of us just call it fiction, or science fiction in the case of ST. Although, you can call it a fantasy bubble if you want.

Mr Awe

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Quite the opposite. I find all these changes make it look even more like a real, "living, breathing", universe. Because changes like that happen in our real world as well. Are the U.S. the same world power they were 100–150 years ago? How many radical changes happened in Russia in the 20th century? Are the German and Japanese people the same (politically and ideologically) today as they were 80 years ago? (Thankfully not, quite the opposite.) Look at fashion. Were men (and women) wearing the same clothes in the 1950's as the men (and women!!!) of the 1960's? Or in the '70s and '80s? Of course not. So IMO changes are the hallmark of a singular universe and not the other way around.

Except Star Trek lives in a fantasy bubble. Everything else about it suggests so, nor was this the writers' intent.

Star Trek is a science fiction franchise and a fictional universe just like Star Wars and/or Hobbit/LOTR. What's your point?

Besides, if what you're suggesting were true, such stylistic changes (for, say, Klingons) wouldn't happen between season seven of TNG and season four of DSN.

Real world "stylistic changes" (i.e. different uniforms):
http://new1.fjcdn.com/comments/This...estions+_e456869b83836c3597e4fe827349e312.jpg

The straws are over by the ketchup.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Are you're trying to be condescending and suggest that I am grasping at straws? Why, because I gave my opinion?

 

[{ Emilia }]

It seems to me like some people seriously need to think about the tone they're using here. Attacking another poster is not tolerated on this board.

Sounds like you're a douchebag.

Warning for Flaming. Comments to PM.
And stop bragging about it already. That almost earned you a second warning.

Having said that:

Sounds like you just have a victim complex. Nobody can make you feel intimidated; only you can choose to feel that way.

Telling somebody they have a victim complex is getting personal, too. You're basically baiting. I strongly suggest you never do that again here. Consider this a friendly reminder. Also comments to PM.

I'm looking at some of the other comments in this thread now and there might be more mod love incoming. Guys, you're all welcome to have a heated debate but: No flaming, no trolling.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

As for egos, the only ones I see are the hurt ones who wished for "other than in the comics and novels, yeah, [Prime Universe] it's pretty much dead and will probably stay that way".

You have issues.

Really? That's your reply? That's what you understood? What are you, sixteen?

Alright, guys, the little back and forth personal remarks at each other about egos, having issues, and what a poster's alleged age are need to stop. Discussion should be about the content of the upcoming show, not about bragging rights over who called some meaningless thing correctly. You get a friendly for now but in the future it can result in infractions.

This thread seems too have been made purely to brag and provoke right from the start, so I was inclined toward shutting it down, but it does seem to have spun off into some other, more productive, areas of conversation, so I'll leave it open as long as we can remain talking about the show first and not our fellow posters.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Alright, guys, the little back and forth personal remarks at each other about egos, having issues, and what a poster's alleged age are need to stop. Discussion should be about the content of the upcoming show, not about bragging rights over who called some meaningless thing correctly. You get a friendly for now but in the future it can result in infractions.

This thread seems too have been made purely to brag and provoke right from the start, so I was inclined toward shutting it down, but it does seem to have spun off into some other, more productive, areas of conversation, so I'll leave it open as long as we can remain talking about the show first and not our fellow posters.

You are right of course about the personal remarks I made above. I only want to point out that they were made early on in the discussion (pages 3 and 11 respectively) and things have calmed down a lot since then. I say this not in defense of myself but because we are now in page 35 and we've had some nice discussions since then and it would be a real pity to lock the thread now.

 

[Shalashaska]

I actually am 16 though.

I don't see the need to revive a dead conversation from tens of pages back, but I'll follow your orders anyway @Locutus of Bored.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I actually am 16 though.

I don't see the need to revive a dead conversation from tens of pages back, but I'll follow your orders anyway @Locutus of Bored.

It's being revived because while the new Discovery Forum was previously overseen by the admins who could handle any critical issues, there were no day to day moderators to review all of the notifications until now. So we went through the backlog of notified posts and started clearing them out, hence the delayed reply to the situation above. It's something that needed to be pointed out to set the tone for the forum now that it's going to be more moderated, because we didn't want to start handing out infractions without letting people know things would be different from now on.

 

[Cinema Geekly]

I never thought we'd see it again mainly because (for me) for a new show to work in the Prime timeline it would need to be set WELL after the events of the Nemesis and probably outside of the Milky Way. There is just too much you are a slave to and I'd like to think of Trek as one continuous journey setting the show so close to TOS (to me) means that while they can bend it in a few places it needs to remember not only what came before it and can't exceed what comes after it.

 

[JWPlatt]

...letting people know things would be different from now on.

Riley: No dance tonight.

 

[Rahul]

This thread seems too have been made purely to brag and provoke right from the start, so I was inclined toward shutting it down, but it does seem to have spun off into some other, more productive, areas of conversation, so I'll leave it open as long as we can remain talking about the show first and not our fellow posters.

I would actually lobby damned hard for a title change.

From:
"For the people who said that we'd never see the prime universe ever again..."
to something like:
"What are your thoughts about seeing the prime universe again?!"

Because that's what the more interesting discussions in this thread are about. Also the title wouldn't sound so condescending anymore, and wouldn't provoke negative and defensive reactions "from the people that said we'd never see the prime universe ever again".

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I would actually lobby damned hard for a title change.

From:
"For the people who said that we'd never see the prime universe ever again..."
to something like:
"What are your thoughts about seeing the prime universe again?!"

Because that's what the more interesting discussions in this thread are about. Also the title wouldn't sound so condescending anymore, and wouldn't provoke negative and defensive reactions "from the people that said we'd never see the prime universe ever again".

That's actually a good idea. Will do. Thanks.

 

[BillJ]

My thoughts? Not my first choice, honestly. I'd have rather them rebooted and lost a lot of the baggage associated with Trek. Though, I'll still be paying for All-Access and tuning in, to see if Fuller can pull it off.

I wish him the best of luck.

 

[Amaris]

My thoughts? Not my first choice, honestly. I'd have rather them rebooted and lost a lot of the baggage associated with Trek. Though, I'll still be paying for All-Access and tuning in, to see if Fuller can pull it off.

I wish him the best of luck.

Exactly.

 

[Kevin Wolff]

The guy who is (or was) making that Pacific 201 Trek fan film, Eric Henry, had an interesting take. He posited that all the Trek we've seen is artistic interpretation, and that we've never actually seen the Trek universe as it actually exists and we never will. I kind of like that line of thinking, especially when dealing with 50 years of history and counting. Continuity only really matters within each series itself.

Comic artist Berni Wrightson, co-creator of Swamp thing, said that he believed Swamp thing lived in the DC universe, but it was a distorted interpretation of it (pre-Vertigo and pre-Alan Moore). So when Batman guest-starred in the book, he felt he was justified making his ears and cape really long which was not acceptable at the time. His reasoning was how he got editorial approval to do what he wanted in the early 70's when DC and Marvel had strict house styles.