What are your thoughts about seeing the prime universe again?

[Ovation]

Except for the fact that Fuller stated that he wanted to use Prime elements and that's why he chose that universe. Soooooo, it will probably matter.

Mr Awe

Kelvinverse is full of "prime elements". Note that I'm not arguing for or against "prime universe" as a setting--I consider the argument meaningless. I'm simply pointing out that "he wanted to use Prime elements" does not, in and of itself, preclude a non-"prime" setting. As I noted, I don't care either way.

Well it really can't be either universe. In the nutrek universe nuKirk became captain about 10 years before prime kirk which.is about the same time period as discovery. Since pike in charge.its definitely the prime uni.

But we don't KNOW that "Pike is in charge" in the new series. Or did the "based on what little we know now" portion of my post prove too obscure?

It's still all just window dressing (unless one or more of the four points I raised is an integral part of the series--something you've also overlooked in your haste to "prove" your point).

 

[BillJ]

But, let's not make a whole thing about this, it's been thoroughly discussed in many TOS threads. I'm just surprised you still think it's definitive.

Definitive? No. Likely? Yes. This was still the 60's, and women weren't seen in the same light they are today. Sure, we can massage it to match current standards. We can call out Number One being the XO in "The Cage". But, at the end of the day, TOS didn't come off looking very good where women were involved.

So, yeah, Fuller putting a woman in the captain's chair would contradict what we've seen in TOS. We saw multiple starbases and three starships, all commanded by men. All the Admirals, Kirk talked to, were men.

 

[Kemaiku]

Captain Hernandez disproved that, commanding a ship over a century before Kirk.

 

[JWPlatt]

Where is the thread that mainly inspired this one? I can't find it. It had a title like "why the new series will NOT be in the Prime timeline."

"IT'S DEAD AND BURIED AND IT'S NEVER COMING BACK"!!!

Heh, I see what you did there - just like the Prime Universe.

 

[Marsden]

Definitive? No. Likely? Yes. This was still the 60's, and women weren't seen in the same light they are today. Sure, we can massage it to match current standards.

Sometimes I wonder what standards we're massaging.

I just watched Man Trap last night. A black woman spoke up to a white man in authority and was not only acknowledged but treated as if she had the right to do so, as it should be.
In 1966, still the 60s as you say, she could have just as easily been reprimanded, belittled or even worse.
Why does one bad standard apply but not another?

 

[BillJ]

Captain Hernandez disproved that, commanding a ship over a century before Kirk.

Problem being, an argument could be made of just how "Prime" the series is? If its a sequel to Picard's time travel adventures, then it is likely in its own timeline. Or, the case can be made that they violated the sacred canon...

 

[mos6507]

I am curious as to how anyone could define what a "Prime element" is, and make it distinct from a "Kelvin element."

Kelvin elements are really more stylistic than canonical, style meaning visual, story, and characterization. The canonical differences are mostly in how the tech operates (travel-time seeming to be inconsequential, transporters having far fewer limitations, warp-drive that behaves more like Star Wars hyperspace, and phasers that shoot more like blasters).

 

[BillJ]

I just watched Man Trap last night. A black woman spoke up to a white man in authority and was not only acknowledged but treated as if she had the right to do so, as it should be. In 1966, still the 60s as you say, she could have just as easily been reprimanded, belittled or even worse.
Why does one bad standard apply but not another?

We also have Spock making light of Rand almost being raped in "The Enemy Within".

 

[JWPlatt]

I am curious as to how anyone could define what a "Prime element" is, and make it distinct from a "Kelvin element."

The Kelvin exists? And a bunch of other ships.

 

[Kemaiku]

Problem being, an argument could be made of just how "Prime" the series is? If its a sequel to Picard's time travel adventures, then it is likely in its own timeline. Or, the case can be made that they violated the sacred canon...

Please don't start that 15 year old shit again, you know fine rightly it's as canon as TOS, moreso for ditching a lot of what was wrong with the 60's.

But if you want to double down on being sexist, fine with me.

 

[Marsden]

We also have Spock making light of Rand almost being raped in "The Enemy Within".

Now you've descended to finger pointing.

Spock said that!

Yeah, that was about the strongest case I've seen for editing out a line of dialogue out of the whole series.

I'm just going to say with a final thought, even if Gene, Gene, DC, Robert, and the rest really thought that a woman can't command a starship while making the show, it was never stated in universe in any episode.

 

[BillJ]

Please don't start that 15 year old shit again, you know fine rightly it's as canon as TOS, moreso for ditching a lot of what was wrong with the 60's.

It can be part of its own universe, and still be canon. After all, it would be a continuation of Star Trek: First Contact.

But if you want to double down on being sexist, fine with me.

You're better than that. You know damned well I'm not sexist.

 

[BillJ]

...it was never stated in universe in any episode.

No, you just had every command position in the series proper occupied by men. Hell, they brought on one time officers just to keep Uhura out of the chair.

 

[Kor]

I'm just going to say with a final thought, even if Gene, Gene, DC, Robert, and the rest really thought that a woman can't command a starship while making the show, it was never stated in universe in any episode.

Well, there's Turnabout Intruder. But I like to think that Lester's idea was some kind of delusional raving. In fact, I like to think that most of the third season was some kind of delusional raving.

Kor

 

[Marsden]

Well, there's Turnabout Intruder. But I like to think that Lester's idea was some kind of delusional raving. In fact, I like to think that most of the third season was some kind of delusional raving.

Kor

Kor, please see my post #445 above to go with that one you've quoted.

 

[CorporalClegg]

You don't know what elements he's going to use. You're just guessing.

My guess is that, because he said he wanted to use Prime elements and chose the Prime timeline because of that, we'll see elements that are exclusive to Prime.

We'll all find out when it airs.

Mr Awe

There are no "elements" exclusive to prime.

Jesus fucking Christ.

 

[Rahul]

These two statements are incongruous.

They really aren't. A Reboot would have new actors play the same characters. A "Next Generation" type has some similarities with a reboot - it has the same premise. But has new characters. I know that's a concept hard to grasp. But look at "Jurassic World", or "The Force Awakens". They are the movie-equivalent. Basically the same premise of the original, but with "The next generation" of characters, and a continuation of the original, rather than a reboot.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

So, yeah, Fuller putting a woman in the captain's chair would contradict what we've seen in TOS. We saw multiple starbases and three starships, all commanded by men. All the Admirals, Kirk talked to, were men.

So 23rd century is more sexist than the 20th, 21st, 22nd and 24th centuries.

And in the 400 crew of TOS' Enterprise that we "saw" and all the Starfleet personnel Kirk "talked to" there was only one alien. So apparently TOS' Starfleet is racist too.

Therefore in order for DSC to be truly set in the prime universe it needs to be sexist and racist.

 

[TRON JA307020]

So 23rd century is more sexist than the 20th, 21st, 22nd and 24th centuries.

And in the 400 crew of TOS' Enterprise that we "saw" and all the Starfleet personnel Kirk "talked to" there was only one alien. So apparently TOS' Starfleet is racist too.

Therefore in order for DSC to be truly set in the prime universe it needs to be sexist and racist.

Lol. Yeah I can see it now. If they have a woman captain billj will.claim its not prime. Ridiculous.

 

[Mr Awe]

I just don't know what to say. You do realize, that when they reboot a property, they don't throw everything away. All or most of the elements are still there, usually just rearranged and updated a bit.

A reboot is more than that. You're actually changing the timeline. It's more than an update. Yes, something are similar but you can make an assumption that the events you saw unfold in the other universe actually unfold the same way in the rebooted universe.

Generally speaking, if you're watching TNG, you can assume that the events of TOS occurred in that timeline. (Yes, I know it's not perfect but you can generally assume that's the intent).

If there's a reboot, you can't assume that. That's why the new movies are a reboot, but TNG is not a reboot.

Mr Awe