What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Farscape One]

Probably not. But Kor definitely respected Kirk.

(Even Koloth regretted not having met Kirk in battle, according to Dax in "TRIALS AND TRIBBLE-ATIONS". Klingons, at least these main ones, have a respect for their opponent... warrior to warrior.)

 

[137th Gebirg]

You can be ruthless against an enemy while still respecting them.

Remember in "SPACE SEED" the briefing room conversation when they find out Khan's identity? Kirk himself said you can be against someone and admire them at once.

Yep. Patton vs Rommel was exactly this.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, I'm not forgetting "THE TIME TRAP". That was still a better way to take out an opponent than having them be tied down and helpless.

Wow, that's a... selective interpretation. He planted a bomb during a period of truce. He went against his word and planned to assassinate his enemies before they knew what hit them. That is as far from honorable combat as you can get. It's even worse treachery than framing Kirk for murder and arranging to have him killed in prison, because at least Kirk had a chance to defend himself there.

In some ways Data's name, while appropriate, seemed far too cute as well.

It was as corny as you could get.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That Soong sense of humor.

 

[Tallguy]

Wow, that's a... selective interpretation. He planted a bomb during a period of truce. He went against his word and planned to assassinate his enemies before they knew what hit them. That is as far from honorable combat as you can get. It's even worse treachery than framing Kirk for murder and arranging to have him killed in prison, because at least Kirk had a chance to defend himself there.

AND claimed credit for getting the ships out of the Triangle.

That's some weird honor right there.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yep. Patton vs Rommel was exactly this.

He was a magnificent bastard. Patton read his book!

 

[Farscape One]

Wow, that's a... selective interpretation. He planted a bomb during a period of truce. He went against his word and planned to assassinate his enemies before they knew what hit them. That is as far from honorable combat as you can get. It's even worse treachery than framing Kirk for murder and arranging to have him killed in prison, because at least Kirk had a chance to defend himself there.




It was as corny as you could get.

Not really a strange interpretation.

From Kor's perspective (and frankly, mine), what would be a worse way to die: tied down and helpless and executed or blown apart by a bomb on your ship?

Obviously, the former is far worse.

May not be honorable combat, but it's a much more honorable death.

 

[Christopher]

From Kor's perspective (and frankly, mine), what would be a worse way to die: tied down and helpless and executed or blown apart by a bomb on your ship?

You're misremembering the question on the table. We're not talking about "The Time Trap" vs. "Errand of Mercy," we're talking about whether the character of Kor could have been treacherous enough to take the place of Chang in the plot of TUC. "The Time Trap" proves that Kor did not hesitate to employ devious, treacherous tactics at James Kirk's expense, and that he was willing to employ assassination (defined as an unexpected, sudden, treacherous attack, such as planting a bomb) to achieve his goals.

 

[Farscape One]

You're misremembering the question on the table. We're not talking about "The Time Trap" vs. "Errand of Mercy," we're talking about whether the character of Kor could have been treacherous enough to take the place of Chang in the plot of TUC. "The Time Trap" proves that Kor did not hesitate to employ devious, treacherous tactics at James Kirk's expense, and that he was willing to employ assassination (defined as an unexpected, sudden, treacherous attack, such as planting a bomb) to achieve his goals.

Actually, I'm not misremembering the question, because my mentioning what he did in "THE TIME TRAP" was in direct response to you talking about what Kor did in that episode. You'll note that my responses about Kor in that episode have you quoted... meaning, I am answering that, and you, directly.

(If you recall, you were the one to first mention "THE TIME TRAP" because you thought I forgot about that episode. Which, by the way, I didn't forget that episode.)



Now, so you and I can be clear on this, I'm answering that 'Kor instead of Chang' question with the rest below.

As The Wormhole stated (which I agree), it's hard to picture Kor in place of Chang because he would rather fight than resort to games. (For simplicity's sake, I'll quote that post below because it hits much of what I feel about Kor in this what if scenario.)

I've seen this opinion voiced before, but really, I just don't see how it could have worked. Even taking into account TOS Klingons weren't noted for honor the way TNG onwards Klingons are, Kor and Kang were still honorable individuals who I can't see filling Chang's role in TUC. Kor in particular, laments when he's announcing his intent to execute Kirk how unfortunate it is he has to kill an actual soldier while the "sheep" he was trying to defend get to continue living. With that in mind, I don't see him framing Kirk for assassinating the chancellor and arranging an "accidental" death for him at prison. Likewise Kang seems the more direct sort, if he wanted Gorkon dead, he'd kill him and take credit for it, if he wanted to sabotage the peace treaty between the Federation and the Klingons, he'd launch an attack on the Federation. I don't see him engaging in an elaborate ruse of framing Starfleet officers to assassinate the chancellor and conspiring further to assassinate the Federation President.

 

[Christopher]

As The Wormhole stated (which I agree), it's hard to picture Kor in place of Chang because he would rather fight than resort to games. (For simplicity's sake, I'll quote that post below because it hits much of what I feel about Kor in this what if scenario.)

I see no reason to conclude that of the Kor depicted in TOS/TAS. He expressed respect for Kirk as having strength and courage, but he showed no reluctance to resort to treacherous tactics like executing hundreds of hostages or planting a bomb under a flag of truce.

You did not need to repost your original comment, because I read it the first time and found its logic flawed, which is why I posted my counterargument. Assuming that Kor is "honorable" just because he found a fighter less contemptible than a pacifist does not logically follow in the least. Just because he despises pacifists doesn't mean he's above cheating or conspiracy or assassination.

 

[Farscape One]

I see no reason to conclude that of the Kor depicted in TOS/TAS. He expressed respect for Kirk as having strength and courage, but he showed no reluctance to resort to treacherous tactics like executing hundreds of hostages or planting a bomb under a flag of truce.

You did not need to repost your original comment, because I read it the first time and found its logic flawed, which is why I posted my counterargument. Assuming that Kor is "honorable" just because he found a fighter less contemptible than a pacifist does not logically follow in the least. Just because he despises pacifists doesn't mean he's above cheating or conspiracy or assassination.

As I said in the very post you just quoted, I was reposting the comment The Wormhole posted because it was not my comment, but I agreed with it and it was quicker and simpler to quote it since it summed up my feelings about the question pretty well.

And if you read it the first time (or the time I quoted it, for that matter), you would have known it wasn't my comment that you were counterarguing.


You think Kor would fit instead of Chang. I don't. We'll just agree to disagree here.