What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Tallguy]

Kor and Kang were still honorable individuals who I can't see filling Chang's role in TUC

How was Kor honorable?

Kor in particular, laments when he's announcing his intent to execute Kirk how unfortunate it is he has to kill an actual soldier while the "sheep" he was trying to defend get to continue living.

Other than the two hundred Organians he had executed. Those sheep have had it. And he was loading up for another two hundred in two hours.

The "actual soldier" is defending the sheep.

Errand of Mercy is a cracking good episode but the moral relativism is awful.

Kang is the first "honorable" Klingon. (I'll throw Mara in there as well.) Kor is as much of a monster as any of the others, he's just super cool while doing it. The rest are weasels.

 

[The Wormhole]

Regardless, I still can't imagine Kor in Chang's role in TUC.

 

[Tallguy]

Regardless, I still can't imagine Kor in Chang's role in TUC.

For one thing, once you cast Kor you remove all doubt that he's the bad guy. (I know, as much as TUC wants to be a mystery, there aren't a lot of suspects.)

Now if it had been Kor instead of Gorkon? Or even better, Kor instead of Azetbur? If Kor AND Kirk had had to come to terms with peace by the end of the film? After Gorkon had been assassinated? THAT would have been a movie!

If Kor replaces Chang then, well, that just reinforces all of Kirk's opinions of Klingons, doesn't it? Which Chang kind of does anyway. "Not only are they not serious about peace they're trying to set me up for the war that they're too cowardly to declare!"

 

[Farscape One]

How was Kor honorable?


Other than the two hundred Organians he had executed. Those sheep have had it. And he was loading up for another two hundred in two hours.

The "actual soldier" is defending the sheep.

Errand of Mercy is a cracking good episode but the moral relativism is awful.

Kang is the first "honorable" Klingon. (I'll throw Mara in there as well.) Kor is as much of a monster as any of the others, he's just super cool while doing it. The rest are weasels.

Those 200 Organians didn't actually die. (We get that reveal in the end.)

I get what you're saying, but I have to disagree about Kor not having honor. He simply follows a different code of honor.

For example, his regret that he would need to execute Kirk instead of killing him in battle. There is far more honor in defeating your enemy face to face rather than tying them down to be executed. It's far more equal footing, battling face to face. (Or even ship to ship, since each side is using their resources to battle the other.)

Think of it like this... which victory would be more satisfying to you? Beating a video game boss while on invincibility mode or beating same said boss the regular way? Obvious, the latter is better because it was an earned victory.

(It's basically the same way of thinking in "BLOOD OATH" when Kang was mad at Dax for even suggesting killing the Albino at night while he slept.)

Kor was the first opponent in the franchise (and really, among the few) who truly respected their enemy.

 

[Christopher]

I get what you're saying, but I have to disagree about Kor not having honor. He simply follows a different code of honor.

For example, his regret that he would need to execute Kirk instead of killing him in battle. There is far more honor in defeating your enemy face to face rather than tying them down to be executed. It's far more equal footing, battling face to face. (Or even ship to ship, since each side is using their resources to battle the other.)

In addition to Tallguy's points, you're forgetting that in "The Time Trap," Kor was perfectly happy to plant a bomb on the Enterprise while pretending to honor the truce. Kor was not "honorable" in the TNG sense, but a treacherous schemer in the tradition of TOS Klingons, a pragmatist who'd do whatever it took to win.

 

[Farscape One]

In addition to Tallguy's points, you're forgetting that in "The Time Trap," Kor was perfectly happy to plant a bomb on the Enterprise while pretending to honor the truce. Kor was not "honorable" in the TNG sense, but a treacherous schemer in the tradition of TOS Klingons, a pragmatist who'd do whatever it took to win.

Actually, I'm not forgetting "THE TIME TRAP". That was still a better way to take out an opponent than having them be tied down and helpless.

Which is still in keeping with them, as Worf states in "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR", "There is nothing more honorable than victory."

 

[Warp Core Breach]

For one thing, once you cast Kor you remove all doubt that he's the bad guy. (I know, as much as TUC wants to be a mystery, there aren't a lot of suspects.)

Now if it had been Kor instead of Gorkon? Or even better, Kor instead of Azetbur? If Kor AND Kirk had had to come to terms with peace by the end of the film? After Gorkon had been assassinated? THAT would have been a movie!

If Kor replaces Chang then, well, that just reinforces all of Kirk's opinions of Klingons, doesn't it? Which Chang kind of does anyway. "Not only are they not serious about peace they're trying to set me up for the war that they're too cowardly to declare!"

This is the sort of thing I'm on board with. More like Kor being an ally of sorts, not just replacing the Chang character wholecloth. It was kind of like one of those Khan-like mysteries about the old show, wherein Kor had some history and respect for Kirk and the Federation. As he said, "It would have been glorious".

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

View attachment 51186

Plummer was great.

No controversy there. Plotwise, it would have been intriguing had he NOT been part of the conspiracy.

This is bizarre to me. John Colicos and Michael Ansara were both great actors, but they just weren't in the same league as Plummer.

Still, Kor and Chang never got to hit Kirk so satisfyingly.
And unlike Plummer, Colicos and Ansara never had to endure ''The Sound of Mucous''.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

He really got back to the Kor of who he was.

You've been channeling my father.

 

[Tallguy]

Those 200 Organians didn't actually die. (We get that reveal in the end.)

One of the reasons I have come to hate this episode. It seriously wants you to think that all is OK.

What about the Klingon occupied planets where the population ISN'T immortal?

I get what you're saying, but I have to disagree about Kor not having honor. He simply follows a different code of honor.

Lots of horrible people "follow a different code".

(It's basically the same way of thinking in "BLOOD OATH" when Kang was mad at Dax for even suggesting killing the Albino at night while he slept.)

These are the "Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man" Klingons? The ones with cloaking devices? (Not in TOS. But Worf sometimes sounds the same and he's never known otherwise.)

Kor was the first opponent in the franchise (and really, among the few) who truly respected their enemy.

Does he? Would Kor have been flushed out by the execution of civilians?

He talks a good game but he's still going to lobotomize and execute Kirk. "Tell you what, disrespect me and don't scramble my brain. Fair trade?"

 

[fireproof78]

Worf is a poser and a wannabe. He's like the Orion on Lower Decks who grew up in Cincinnati.

Being from Cincinnati means he must know the theme song and ultimately fight against evil.

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[Jayson1]

Worf was a fun comic relief character on TNG He always seemed to get all the funny lines. Except when he was doing his Klingon episodes. DS9 made him a more well rounded character.

 

[Henoch]

Replacing Chang with Kor, Kang or Koloth would still probably kill off one of them in TUC, and not make them available for the later DS9 episodes. If I was to choose which one would be involved with the conspiracy to kill the Chancellor, Koloth was the scheming weasel type based on his involvement with the spying and sabotage on K7. YMMV

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Worf was a fun comic relief character on TNG He always seemed to get all the funny lines. Except when he was doing his Klingon episodes. DS9 made him a more well rounded character.

But forever cursed with his Muppet-like name, and his dolphin-like action embrassments on the Bridge. Forever Flipped and forever cursed to be the first (and still-only) Klingon with a name ending in ''F.''

In some ways Data's name, while appropriate, seemed far too cute as well.

 

[Farscape One]

One of the reasons I have come to hate this episode. It seriously wants you to think that all is OK.

What about the Klingon occupied planets where the population ISN'T immortal?


Lots of horrible people "follow a different code".


These are the "Four thousand throats may be cut in one night by a running man" Klingons? The ones with cloaking devices? (Not in TOS. But Worf sometimes sounds the same and he's never known otherwise.)


Does he? Would Kor have been flushed out by the execution of civilians?

He talks a good game but he's still going to lobotomize and execute Kirk. "Tell you what, disrespect me and don't scramble my brain. Fair trade?"

Yes, Kor actually does respect Kirk. Not only does it show in his demeanor when talking to Kirk, but it's pretty clearly stated in dialogue. You can still respect your enemy while still having to do what your duties are required to do, which in this eould be using the mind scanner on Kirk and turning him into a vegetable.


Also, there are good people who follow a code that is horrible. But it's not a horrible code in their society.


And yes, those were the same Klingons in "BLOOD OATH" as that phrase from "DAY OF THE DOVE". Note that the original agreement with the Albino was for them to fight it out honorably at the compound's entrance. The Albino's treachery with the mine forced them to go with the plan they did.


As for other conquered planets, that's just standard procedure for occupying worlds for the Klingons. Do I like it? No. But those are the orders and rules for the Klingons against their enemies so they get followed. Doesn't mean Kor or others within have no sense of honor.

 

[Farscape One]

But forever cursed with his Muppet-like name, and his dolphin-like action embrassments on the Bridge. Forever Flipped and forever cursed to be the first (and still-only) Klingon with a name ending in ''F.''

In some ways Data's name, while appropriate, seemed far too cute as well.

I don't mind Worf's name. (I do believe one of Dak'Rah's military leaders was named Kiff, so at least one other Klingon has an 'f' as the last letter in their name.)

 

[Tallguy]

As for other conquered planets, that's just standard procedure for occupying worlds for the Klingons. Do I like it? No. But those are the orders and rules for the Klingons against their enemies so they get followed. Doesn't mean Kor or others within have no sense of honor.

Well...

DOCTOR: Because there is something evil here and we must stay.
HOBSON: Evil? Don't be daft.
DOCTOR: Evil is what I meant. There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible things. Things which act against everything that we believe in. They must be fought.

And

LENORE: Captain Kirk. Who are you to say what harm was done?
KIRK: Who do I have to be?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kor is a cog in a machine and he knows he is a cog in a machine. One that can easily be replaced. He does what is expected, which includes executing civilians and torturing prisoners. So he takes his pleasures where he can. He's no doubt disappointed to governing a planet of sheep. He perks up to find a ram among the sheep in "Baroner." He's also come across as a bit weary of it all, but to faulter means "replacement." He not going to take a stand like the Romulan Commander in BOT, he's to selfish for that. And a war means a break from the doldrums.

 

[Farscape One]

You can be ruthless against an enemy while still respecting them.

Remember in "SPACE SEED" the briefing room conversation when they find out Khan's identity? Kirk himself said you can be against someone and admire them at once.

 

[Tallguy]

You can be ruthless against an enemy while still respecting them.

Remember in "SPACE SEED" the briefing room conversation when they find out Khan's identity? Kirk himself said you can be against someone and admire them at once.

Fair. But I wonder if Kirk admired Kor.