What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Amasov, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I agree entirely with this. It's the only time destroying the hero ship has worked. It almost worked in DS9 with the Defiant, but then they ruined it by giving them an identical replacement a couple of episodes later. It definitely did not work with the destruction of the Enterprise-D, surely one of the greatest narrative blunders in the history of the franchise, and the less said about the Abramsprise the better.

    Actually, thinking about it I suppose it worked with the Enterprise-C as well, because there are few TNG episodes more moving than "Yesterday's Enterprise".

    My feeling has always been that The Search For Spock was written and filmed as though it could have been the final instalment of Star Trek if it needed to be.
     
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  2. Tallguy

    Tallguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm going to argue that it worked better in Beyond.

    It works in TSFS because it is THE ENTERPRISE. But it's less than four mintues from the time Kirk requests computer access (so the audience knows what he's going to do) to the time Bones says "turned death into a fighting chance to live"! AND there's even time in there to laugh at the dumb Klingons! But then she's never mentioned again by any of the crew. Sarek says "Your son, your ship." We get to see the footage again in the Federation Council meeting. The President mentions it at the trial (and honestly there is more of a reaction about Scotty's sabotaging the Excelsior). That's it.

    Generations might have taken the title for me. The separation sequence is heartbreaking. The effects are magnificent. The crew are being put through the wringer. We spent more time with this ship than we did with Kirk's Enterprise. But it's the freaking Duras sisters! Oh, and Picard has no idea that it's happening. He probably wouldn't care that much anyway.

    Beyond is the opposite of TSFS. I hate that freaking ship. I mean... She's still the Enterprise. But the drama doesn't come from the ship, it comes from her crew. And this one is actually part of the progression of the plot rather than wrapping things up. It's not the end of the adventure it's the beginning. Losing the Enterprise is part of the odds they must overcome. And it's harrowing. You see them losing the ship piece by piece. As great as Shatner's "My God, Bones, what have I done?" it's actually topped by the look on Pine's face as he launches in the escape pod and you see what he sees in the reflection on the pod window. You watch him watch the Enterprise die. And then Kirk has to get to work to save his crew!
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. It carries weight because it carries far more weight in Pine's look. The "my god..." line from Shatner is good, but lacks the punch because it feels like Kirk knew what he must do. Pine Kirk is distraught at the loss, combined with his self-doubt and now have to fight back.

    It is magnificent in its portrayal of hurt of the main character.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2024
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  4. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think some of this is just down to the sensibilities of how low-budget movies were made and edited in the 80s. I've seen re-edits of this whole sequence on Youtube and it's much more dramatic and moving with just a change in soundtrack.

    It is a triumph of physical effects, yes, though it does look a bit Tracy Island now. But everyone's attitude is far too dismissive in the end. "Oh, it can't be salvaged. Plenty more letters in the alphabet. Just leave everything here, someone else will clean it up. Hey ho, off we go."

    Also, getting sucker-punched by the Duras Sisters and not fighting back is just... crap.

    The one positive thing I can say about the Abramsprise's destruction in Beyond was that the ship took punishment until there was literally nothing left of it. Too often Star Trek ships are shown to be glass cannons, being taken down in a single hit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2024
  5. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I somehow did not see that trailer, and went completely unprepared as a innocent 13-year old there to watch my heroes' newest adventure, nothing more . When the saucer exploded, I literally spat my pancreas and several other organs out. I had to look for them in the theater floor and swallow them back in.

    It's been 40 years and I was never the same.
     
  6. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Apparently Nimoy was furious about that. He didn't want any references to it so audiences would be appropriately shocked and surprised, but the studio thought it would boost box office.

    Which is precisely why I prefer the Enterprise-D to the Enterprise-E. Oh, the Enterprise-E is a fine-looking ship (albeit in a sort of soulless corporate way), but the Enterprise-D is MY Enterprise, the Enterprise I grew up with, and the Enterprise I have an emotional connection with.

    There was, I believe, a comic series between The Search for Spock and The Voyage Home that had Kirk in command of the Excelsior. An interesting glimpse along a road not taken...
     
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  7. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    I'm watching Captain's holiday. The TNG portrayal of Lwaxanna being interested in Picard as some kind of cougar on the prowl joke is so sexist since they had no qualms hooking Picard with much younger than himself lady in the same episode. Majel Barrett was only 8 years older than Stewart. Jennifer Hetrick is 18 years younger than Stewart.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
  8. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    TNG Hollow Pursuits - the one where La Forge needs management training
    Welcome to the 23rd century where we treat our colleagues who are different like turd
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
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  9. Tallguy

    Tallguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Awwww, that's what I wanted!

    Why am I a spoilerphobe? 1982: Knew Spock was going to die. 1983: Knew everything about Return of the Jedi. 1984: "The final voyage of the U.S.S. Enterprise! (KABOOM!)"

    I got super paranoid for The Voyage Home. Thankfully the reveal of the 1701-A was a total surprise.

    In the 35+ years since:

    Didn't know Red Skull was going to be in Infinity War.
    Didn't know Nick Fury was at the end of Iron Man.
    Didn't know the end of The Sixth Sense.
    Didn't know that Kirk was going to die or that they were going to blow up the D.

    Of course they blew up the JJ-prise on the bloody POSTER. NVM, that was STID.

    If only I could live in a world where James Cameron (or whoever did his marketing) kept it a secret that Arnold was the good guy in Terminator 2.

    DC had to tread water for two and half years. Then they had to hit the reset button on everything before TVH came out. Spock lost his memory, they lost the Excelsior, they got the Bird of Prey back, they had to hide on Vulcan. (It was cool that they got Spock's marbles back the first time because he mind-melded with mirror Spock.)

    I don't know what Star Trek's game plan was with the Excelsior. I mean, it seemed pretty clear that the Excelsior was going to be the new ship. But the fans HAAAAATED it. Nothing to be done there. Bad luck. Except the movie itself does a pretty good job of making everyone hate it, regardless of the design.

    Of course the movie also does a good job of making everyone in Starfleet who is not or does not work for James T. Kirk into blithering morons. Who would want to be in that crazy service?
     
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  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Especially considering the higher rank you reach the greater odds of going crazy or evil.
     
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  11. Citiprime

    Citiprime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I do think the Enterprise's destruction in Search for Spock has a lot of meaning within the movie and works thematically with the inversion of "the needs of the many" that occurs in that film.

    Wrath of Khan is basically Spock's answer to the Kobayashi Maru, and it's a utilitarian choice based in Vulcan logic. Search for Spock is basically about reversing everything about the core idea with the crew's human nobility believing "the needs of the one" is more important. When Sarek asks Kirk about "your ship, your son," the answer that if he hadn't tried the cost would of been Kirk's soul is something that I like to think Sarek probably believes is illogical but understands humans enough to respect and admire it on some level.

    Also, if I remember correctly, Harve Bennett and Nimoy argued that if you wanted to bring Spock back, it couldn't feel cheap and that you basically had to "pay" for it within the story. That's why even though the crew saves Spock, they lose their careers, their ship, and Kirk loses David.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
  12. The Knappos

    The Knappos Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, the destruction of the Enterprise in TSFS has multitudes more meaning and impact than the near soulless destruction porn in Beyond. Beyond couldn’t even lace TSFS’s boots in that respect.
     
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  13. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek V was my introduction to Trek movies, so I knew seeing III the ship would be fixed or replaced or something.

    For me, it was seeing the Enterprise-D destroyed in "Time Squared" that freaked me the hell out.

    By the end of "Cause and Effect" I was forever desensitised to Enterprises being destroyed in any form of media.
     
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  14. ananta

    ananta Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    “C&E” was one of the few really great episodes Brandon Braga wrote. It has one of the absolute best teasers of the entire franchise. First time we see the ship explode it’s utterly shocking. By about the twelfth time it was simply hilarious. I watched with a friend who genuinely found the episode a hoot. You could create a great drinking game for that ep.
     
  15. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    let's see

    1701 - destroyed in The Search for Spock
    A - spared, but took several torpedoes in its last movie. It's Swiss cheese now
    B and C - don't count
    D - several alternates in the series, plus definitely* in Generations
    E - crashed into Nero's ship, crushed half of its extremely oval saucer, probably written off
    DS9 - I don't recall it exploding, but it lost a lot of Runabouts and I don't remember how many Defiants
    Voyager - a few alternates. I recall it crashing into the Robocop guy's ship, plus the T-1000-like version dissolving
    NX-01 - now that the CGI special effects are viable, the Xindi did a good number. Also I recall one alternate ripped open the top of the bridge
    JJ-prize - Beyond

    *I didn't follow the newer shows but I know that it came back in ST:Picard
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
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  16. Grendelsbayne

    Grendelsbayne Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's a new ship, not the D again.
     
  17. Tallguy

    Tallguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The saucer is still the D. Are you saying it's not the D of Theseus?
     
  18. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    DS9 was destroyed in "VISIONARY", but that was one of the future time jumps of O'Brien.
     
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  19. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's 66% the same ship by volume. Arguably there's more of the Enterprise-D in the Syraprise than there was of the original 1701 in the refit 1701, but nobody complains about that not being the same ship...
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Despite appearances to the contrary...