What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Amasov, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Arguably The Best Poster Named cooleddie Moderator

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    Makes sense. Think of all the failed romances and personal endeavors Picard attempted during his seven years on the Enterprise-D. As stated above his brother and nephew dying violent deaths. Melancholy over past losses in his life. Action Hero Picard is a version of the thing that happens to many men when they feel like their goals in life are unobtained and out of reach. Change who you appear to be on the outside to make up for the person you're not within.

    So for a few years Picard becomes Rambo Jean-Luc who likes to wear tank tops. ;)
     
  2. Mister Spock

    Mister Spock Commander Red Shirt

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    Hence why the scholastic renaissance man suddenly got really, really into driving dune buggies.
     
  3. USS Artorius

    USS Artorius Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes I love all these points, Mid-Life crisis Picard dealing with loss and disillusioned with Starfleet explains SOME of what happened in the TNG movies. The rest is obviously poor writing and NEM suffered from a director with no knowledge or passion for the source material. I think Picard is somewhat redeemed though in Picard Season 3. He got the son he didn't know about but wanted all the same, and I think Terry was trying his best to bring him back towards the man he was in his prime, on the E-D, and I think overall it was successful. Whether you like the fan service or find it a bit cringe, there's no denying that by the final couple of episodes Picard has made peace with himself and finally seen the value again in the support and admiration of his peers and the lower decks alike. And they couldn't end his story without saving the world one more time, so they had to throw in the Borg curveball for good measure. The character of Picard finally got the happy ending he deserved.
     
  4. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That Picard worked for his happy ending is admirable but hardly deserved.
     
  5. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Moderator

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    Why is it not deserved? I would argue he worked very hard on himself over the 3 seasons of PIC.
     
  6. drt

    drt Commodore Commodore

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    I thought Picard got his vibe back over the course of the first season, he was the Academy commandant and pretty on top of things in Season 2.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This may be a controversial opinion in general (not just Trek) but I do not operate with the attitude that characters deserve any particular outcome. To me, and this comes from studying mythology, older stories, and some personal preferences, but characters go on a journey and if the outcome is a happy one then great. If the outcome is less happy and the story is well done also great.

    So I struggle with "deserve" in a character context. They don't deserve anything except a satisfactory ending to the story, happy or sad.
     
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  8. Commander Troi

    Commander Troi Geek Grrl Moderator

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    OK. I see that I took "deserve" in a different context.
     
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  9. The Knappos

    The Knappos Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Actually, the rest is 95% actor ego demanding these action hero aspects and 5% the writing having to bend over backwards to accommodate it.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In Nemesis he meets himself at 30.

    In Insurrection a magic planet made him feel like he was 30, and if he had stayed there a little longer, he would have been 30 inside and out.

    A midlife crisis is generally figurative, but what we got here is a literal juxtapisition with his youth, that is either trying to murder Picard or consume Picard.
     
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  11. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It works pretty well with the Picard we saw in Tapestry too - you know perfectly the Picard who gets into a scrap with Nausicans is the same kind of nut jub who would go joy riding.

    Tapestry actually was about season 5 so just as Picard was becoming more action/"fun"/less reserved so I think the Picard who wouldn't act like he did in Nem is more season 1 and 2 Picard - a Picard who was still broken due to the events on the Stargazer and so adopted this uber reserved and uptight persona to protect himself.

    By Season 5 he has been assimilated, had Q fuck with him multiple times, started hanging around with Guinan again which can only have been good for getting that stick out of his arse, had become a key part of the Klingon political environment (and took a stabbing for it too) so he has likely come to recognise that whilst going in all guns blazing isn't the answer to his problems, he also can't solve everything with a patronising speech.

    Come Nem and his First Officer of 20ish years is leaving him, Worf left years ago, Wesley showed up to the wedding and wouldn't shut up when instructed too - I can see how he got a bit of the old "one last hurrah" into his mind about going to the planet and going for a ride.
     
  12. Citiprime

    Citiprime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The real-life behind-the-scenes reason for this is that, when it came time to make the TNG movies, Patrick Stewart had much more influence and story input than he did during the run of the TV series. What may have been a request to the writers on TNG became a demand in order to agree to doing another movie. And the whole thing might be an example of why it's not always a great idea to give an actor authority on story decisions for their character. For example, it was Brent Spiner's idea to kill Data in Nemesis, and not only did it not go over well but it took 3 seasons of Picard to dig their way out from that decision.

    Reportedly, Stewart pushed for the movies to feature a version of Picard that was more an action hero, instead of the cerebral speech-maker from the TV series. He wanted Picard to be the one that was in the middle of fights, carrying a phaser, and the driver of the action within the stories. That's why Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis all feature "final fights" where Stewart is face-to-face with the villains, or Picard driving a Starfleet dune buggy in the desert, or Picard having the love story with the Baku woman.

    In their review for Picard season 3, Mike and Rich over at Red Letter Media made the argument that Matalas not only tries to retcon some of the choices made in seasons 1 and 2, but also attempts to correct some of the decisions made during the movies as well.
     
  13. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Tapestry" was just past the middle of season 6. But I see what you are saying.
     
  14. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Fuck you and your being right about things!

    You can add rehabilitating Ro, almost but not in the end genociding the Borg with Hugh, and been tortured by the Cardassians by the time of Tapestry.

    After all that, plus the "don't be a stick in the mud" life lesson then who isn't going to get a space Ferarri (maybe the E is more of a Dodge Viper? You get my point) and want to rough it with the lads a bit etc
     
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  15. USS Artorius

    USS Artorius Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree but also the movie writers and director would want the movies to have more action generally to appeal to a wider audience to increase box office numbers. It's simple the nature of the media. Not Patricks problem and why should it be a problem? "Starship Mine" already showed Picard going all John Wick and that was a TV episode so after that there was no reason not to show a more action heavy picard. Kirk did all that stuff multiple times and no one took issue (aside from TFF). Just because Picards character was an intelligent empathic man doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to physically fight for himself and his crew if it was a last resort.
     
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  16. Imaus

    Imaus Captain Captain

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    All attempts to make a hard scifi trek ...just isn't trek.

    I don't know what it is exactly that doesn't translate well, but it's striking. Be it the ship design, communications ease, space magic like teleporters and telepathy, it's...not translatable to real life.

    Trust me, I've sorta tried, I've seen harder scifi communities try, it's better off just working on something new instead.

    But still, Trek has veered too off in the other direction - the much aligned technobabble, or ridiculous concepts even for the show like the spore drive. It does Trek no harm to at least check itself so it doesn't end up sounding like a 50s movie on Magnetism or Solidified Electricity or having Ultrasound being a wunderwaffen for the day, ya know?
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2023
  17. USS Artorius

    USS Artorius Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah I see what you are saying - There was something delightfully simple and grounded in TOS. The technology was not absurd and had some level of realism to it, but still advanced enough to capture that sense of wonder. TNG focuses less on the dangers of space and more on the politics of the federation and diplomatic issues, but that was still fine. But the Kirk movies are just as guilty as the TNG ones in having to have their captain be an action hero. It just fit Kirks character better than Picard.
     
  18. Space Socialist

    Space Socialist Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I’ve generally thought that was more about showing how advanced the space-faring civilisation of the Federation had become, and how well developed the Fed territory and infrastructure was by the mid 24th century compared to Kirk’s era. Might be wrong on that, though!
     
  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t think this is true. Kirk barely gets out of his chair in TMP and TWOK. He basically just walks around or is back in his chair in TVH. Yes, he gets into a scuffle in TUC, but he’s clearly outmatched and just trying to survive.
     
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  20. Macintosh

    Macintosh Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Agreed, a big point of TWoK is that it's a battle of wits, not brawn. Kirk and Khan never meet face-to-face. The closest Kirk comes to physical action in that film is jogging to engineering when Spock's dying.
     
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