Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Amasov, Jun 20, 2020.
Cardassia would like a word.
Agreed about the "Angel One" line at the end.
Regarding other races... possibly, but we have not heard of other races in STAR TREK having concentration camps. I have never considered slaughterhouses for cows and pigs, for example, to be on the same level as a Nazi concentration camp. Frankly, I can't understand the comparison because humans aren't a food source. Unless Soylent Green starts being sold in stores.
You are 100% correct. Gallitep was by definition a concentration camp. However, I was focusing on Quark comparing human and Ferengi history.
My other post about only humans having them IS inaccurate, and thank you for the reminder.
I don't know. When I see that Quark's brother Rom had ended up leader of the Fereingi
I know I have commented on this before, I believe the Star Trek franchise is a master at backpedaling.
I have one last comment to make that many might find controversial. I've never liked the franchise's portrayal of the Maquis in TNG, DS9 and VOY. The franchise's portrayal of that group reminded me of how Hollywood had this tendency to portray man progressive characters and groups - either by demonizing them or portraying them as phony or ineffectual. Characters and groups can be "progressive", as long as they follow the status quo.
Quark never backpedaled. Based on what you said of Tuvok in "FLASHBACK", Tuvok certainly backpedaled.
And Zek making Rom the new Nagus was 5 years after that line from "THE JEM'HADAR". Nearly always, any backpedaling is done within the same episode, or even the same season.
Neither have I. I am certainly no militantly vegan animal rights activist (maybe vegetarian someday, though). But I understand the reality of the meat business.
I wasn't referring to just the characters themselves - like Tuvok. I'm also referring to the franchise's writers and showrunners. I keep thinking of the whole revelation about the attempt at genocide against the Founders. Not long after that revelation, the show runners stuck a while Klingon Civil War arc that took actor Robert O'Reilly by surprise. The same arc in which Ezri Dax had proclaimed that the Klingon Empire was morally in trouble, conveniently forgetting about the whole mess regarding the attempt at genocide against the Founders. And there was never any follow up over the deception that dragged the Romulans into the Dominion War.
The Maquis story arc was a mess from Day One and never got any better.
Actually I saw a rough draft that they abandoned that was going to have Sisko and Co. found out and have all of the fallout and ramifications, undoing everything they had sacrificed for.
There was no Klingon Civil War in the final DS9 episodes. It was purely a matter of Gowron being jealous of Martok's popularity, and sidelining him so he can take an active role in the war... which was a mistake because he was doing it only for glory instead of focusing on keeping the defense while Starfleet tries to counter the Breen weapon. Sisko made it clear to Worf he had to be stopped, which after some attempts to get Martok to step in, Worf himself fought Gowron in combat. This was allowed, as "Redemption II" showed us. (The lone Klingon who challenged Gowron with, "Maybe they have better leaders.")
While I agree there could have been a scene or two more about Section 31's genocide attempt, I'm not sure it would have been able to fit into an already packed group of final episodes. Besides, Odo linked with the Female Changeling, and clearly it was okay enough to let go for the time being. (It's very likely Odo said what Bashir said to him about Section 31 being rogues, which is true. The Founders already had at least one attempt at genocide when the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar joined together secretly to attack their homeworld. The only reason that failed was because the Founders got wind of the plan early enough to lay the trap that decimated both organizations.)
As for the events of "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT", that was an top secret operation. With the exception of Garak, everyone involved is dead, and Sisko is with the Prophets. There would be no reason to follow it up.
As for the Maquis, that storyline did have some pitfalls. I was really on their side... until they moved from defending their homes to aggressive attacks outside theur colonies. It dud give ys some good episodes and stories, though.
I'm liking the thought that if the Romulans ever DO find out the truth, they won't declare war on the Federation or anything like that - on the contrary, they'd applaud the Federation for doing what needs to be done, for using very Romulan-like efforts to fight the Dominion.
Because you all know damn well that if the sides were reversed...the Romulans would have TOTALLY done everything we saw Sisko do, and probably a lot worse.
I mean, publicly the Romulans might complain (just for show)...but in private, they'd be like "Well played! Well played!"
And as I said, Vreenak no doubt had many enemies, who would not shed a single tear at his passing (which, I might add, was Garak's doing, not Sisko's).
I don't like that at all; it goes against the spirit of Star Trek.
Even in TOS, there were choices made that were not happy endings or what we would consider the spirit of STAR TREK. "A PRIVATE LITTLE WAR" comes quickly to mind, for one.
Because happily ever after is not always possible. Star Trek does well to remember that instead of lying to the audience.
I agree, and I always liked that about TOS.
But I was specifically saying there are TOS endings that are not in the spirit of the franchise. Kirk basically perpetually continuing a war between the Hill People and the Villagers doesn't strike me as a solution in the spirit of ST.
I'm saying there is precedent for going against the spirit, and it told a good story. The fact that "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT" is consistently hailed as among the best of DS9 and the franchise and is talked greatly a quarter of a century later is proof that it was a good story told well.
And they didn't bother to do it.
In other words, let's make sure the Federation never pay the consequences of t heir actions. Oh well. They never did in the long run. Typical.
I don't like that there are noncomissioned members of Starfleet, I prefer that every member be at least Ensign and have attended Starfleet Academy. It doesn't really seem good for either members or the organization to have members who have not gone to Starfleet Academy and therefore do not have and cannot advance in rank.
I understand what you're saying, but, for a lot of people, that's really "overqualified" for what they end up doing. There are always going to be the tech people, the workers, the staff that creates the backbone and holds the organization together. Not everyone in the US Army has, or needs to graduate West Point.
And these people can advance. They could earn a commission. But, if their career is going the way they want it to, why bother going for that extra, which actually keeps you from doing what you want to for years. Look at O'Brien. Enlisted and is the Chief Engineer of inarguably one of the most important posts in Starfleet and one of its most advanced starships. Then he moves on to teaching at the Academy. He's already doing what he wants to do.
What would the Academy do for him to advance his career in a way that he wants?
Also, there are the likes of Simon Tarses. Someone has to basically be the nursing assistant that dispenses meds. "I did four years at the Academy for this? Why?"
I think the Academy is as it should be. It's a place for people who have the drive for it, that have a specific life path in mind that requires it.
Klingon Civil War or not. For me, it was an arc that came out of nowhere at the last minute. And it seemed designed to distract audiences from the lack of consequences regarding the revelation about the attempt to commit genocide against the Founders. It was an arc that led Ezri to make the following comment to Worf:
"I think that the situation with Gowron is a symptom of a bigger problem. The Klingon Empire is dying; and I think it deserves to die."
This comment, along with this arc about Gowron and Worf came on the heels of the revelation about Section 31's attempt to commit genocide against the Founders. Sisko, along with many Trek fans tried to dismiss what Section 31 did and claim that the Federation never knew about the attempted genocide. Odo - along with myself - didn't buy the bullshit. And worse, I'm still disappointed that there was no follow up on this. Instead, the writers introduced this Klingon arc with Worf and Gowron.
True. Starfleet needs worker bees as well as officers. And, there's no reason why a particularly promising Crewman can't be sent to the Academy after a couple years as an enlisted man (in beta canon, Simon Tarses ultimately followed this path). In the actual military, this is called a "mustang" officer. Not too long ago, one such individual rose all the way to the rank of four-star admiral and the post of CNO, i.e. the head of the US Navy.
Also, in a situation like "Voyager" I expect a crewman could simply be given a field commission of ensign, at the captain's discretion. Had the ship actually experienced the deprivations and difficulty it was supposed to, this likely would have happened. One possible scenario: Chakotay dies, so Tuvok is bumped up to first officer, and Ayala is now chief of security (and has to actually talk sometimes). To replace him, Crewman Shmoo is granted the rank of ensign.
Quote: This comment, along with this arc about Gowron and Worf came on the heels of the revelation about Section 31's attempt to commit genocide against the Founders. Sisko, along with many Trek fans tried to dismiss what Section 31 did and claim that the Federation never knew about the attempted genocide. Odo - along with myself - didn't buy the bullshit. And worse, I'm still disappointed that there was no follow up on this. Instead, the writers introduced this Klingon arc with Worf and Gowron.
I may be misremembering, but I believe there's a specific line before the finale that states that the Federation Council knew what Section 31 planned to do and approved it.
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