• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

he kid in "The Bonding" was originally supposed to recreate his dead mom on the Holodeck, but it became space aliens who did it instead because mourning isn't a thing in the 24th Century. :rolleyes:
For a humanist he could be oddly inhuman.

They discussed replacing Commander Riker with his rebellious transporter duplicate Lt. Thomas Riker, but they chickened out of that because the TNG movies were right around the corner.
This was a huge missed opportunity, IMHO. Of course I'm assuming that if they changed Rikers that they would have written it in any way that anyone would have noticed.

And I was always bummed that Thomas ended up in a Cardassian prison never to be heard from again.
 
TNG is a unique case, since it was a 1980s show reusing a format from a 1960s show. So it had a certain retro quality baked in and was never the trailblazing series it liked to pretend it was. When you compare it to one hour dramas created in and for the 1980s like Hill Street Blues, St. Elsewhere, or L.A. Law, TNG lags pretty far behind.

By the 90s, sitcoms like Roseanne, Ellen, and Will and Grace were featuring regular gay characters while the best TNG and DS9 could do was science fiction metaphors for homosexuality like "The Outcast" and "Rejoined." TNG could've been a lot more groundbreaking than it was, but the powers that were chose not to be. David Gerrold wanted to do "Blood and Fire," a story that was a metaphor for the AIDS crisis that also featured a gay couple, in TNG's first season, but TNG and Roddenberry in particular chickened out on it.

Heck, even the ongoing character arcs that shows like Hill Street specialized in were anathema to TNG's standalone style storytelling. Remember when Dr. Pulaski told Geordi he could get artificial ocular implants in some second season episode or another? That was supposed to be the setup for an ongoing plotline for Geordi that also involved a romance with the Sonya Gomez character, but that went nowhere.

If you read The TNG Companion, it's FILLED with examples of more provocative & interesting sounding stories that the TNG writers & producers chickened out of. The bad guys in "Conspiracy" were originally supposed to be a rogue group of Starfleet officers who thought the Prime Directive was too restrictive, but they became space parasites instead because Starfleet officers could never REALLY go bad. Roddenberry didn't want Picard to lie to Moriarty at the end of "Elementary, Dear Data" to regain control of his ship, so that story just peters out instead of having an actual dramatic climax. The kid in "The Bonding" was originally supposed to recreate his dead mom on the Holodeck, but it became space aliens who did it instead because mourning isn't a thing in the 24th Century. :rolleyes: They discussed replacing Commander Riker with his rebellious transporter duplicate Lt. Thomas Riker, but they chickened out of that because the TNG movies were right around the corner. And so on and so on.

Even at the end of "Attached" in the very last season of the show, the writers chickened out of getting Picard and Crusher romantically involved, something they'd teased since at least episode two, with Crusher literally saying "Or maybe we should be afraid" when Picard suggests exploring their feelings for each other. Honestly, "Maybe we should be afraid" could've been the mantra for the whole show. I like TNG, but most of the time it was a long way from TOS' "To boldly go" / "Risk is our business" vibe.
I agree with all of these points. Minus "they should've kept Tom Riker!"

Except in one way, which I'll get to, I don't think TNG was trailblazing. It wasn't top-tier like the shows you listed, but it was ahead of the shows I listed, quoting myself a little bit earlier:

I'm thinking of things like The A-Team or Knight Rider or Spencer for Hire or MacGuyver. Things like that. Compared to those, TNG (including Season 1) doesn't look dated.

So, I would argue that TNG was somewhere in the middle as TV. Probably upper-middle since it did manage to last so long and is the only Star Trek show most of my friends have seen, and it's the only Star Trek besides TOS and the Kelvin Movies that broke into the mainstream. Still, I'll agree, that's not the same as trailblazing.

I only think TNG was trailblazing in the sense that its success proved that it was possible to make a science-fiction series on Star Trek's scale and be able to sustain it for several seasons. TOS only made it to three, and '70s BSG only lasted the one. Whatever anyone thinks of TNG, without it, so many science-fiction and fantasy series wouldn't have been greenlit in the '90s and '00s.
 
Star Wars seemed like it was wrapped up after ROTJ. Trek movies were making money but not at SW levels. TV networks after the success of Star Wars were more than willing to TRY sci fi (Buck Rodgers, BSG, Voyagers!, Manimal, Supertain, the Powers of Matthew Star, Otherworld, Space 1999, Twilight Zone revival, etc) but they seemed to get burned practically every time they tried it. It's hard to blame them. And after BSG they were really reticent to try space opera again, which would be expensive to film in any kind of way that didn't look as goofy compared to the big screen stuff.

TNG opened up a world of original syndication possibilities afterwards.
 
After I'm done with my DS9 Re-Watch Thread, I'll be starting a TNG Re-Watch Thread. It's probably going to take another year-and-a-half, at the pace I'm going. So, I'll have plenty of time to make myself more familiar with '80s TV (besides cartoons and any sitcoms I watched when I was a kid) before starting that thread. I'll have a broader perspective by the time I write my review for "Encounter at Farpoint".

I'll also be doing what Gene Roddenberry and the group he had with him did in 1986: watch every science-fiction movie from the last 10 years before it to "see what the future looks like". I have a working list of what I think they watched. So, that's another area where I'll have a broader perspective and will fill in some gaps because there were definitely things that slipped through the cracks in terms of what I've seen.
 
Last edited:
I agree with all of these points. Minus "they should've kept Tom Riker!"
To clarify, I wasn't really arguing that they should've made the Riker switch. I don't know if that would've been a good idea or not. But it was yet another example of the show wimping out and not doing a potentially risky move.

I mean, if you're comparing TNG to 80s stuff like The A-Team, Knight Rider, and MacGyver, then sure, it looks pretty good. (Although, honestly, if you gave me a choice between watching The A-Team and TNG right now, I'd probably choose The A-Team. At least that show had a sense of humor about itself.)

But as David Gerrold pointed out in his book The World of Star Trek, Star Trek works best as a dramatic series, rather than an action or a science fiction series. Ideally, Kirk (or Picard) should have an impossible choice to make at some point during the episode: Does Kirk save his true love Edith Keeler or let her die to preserve history? Does Kirk try to change things in the evil Mirror Universe or just try to escape? Does Picard let Wesley be put to death for violating a planet's arbitrary rule or does he violate the Prime Directive? Does Picard fight for Data's rights as a sentient being or does he let a Starfleet scientist take him apart to make more of him? Does Picard let the Enterprise-C go back in time to almost certain death or give them the firepower they need to win their battle? All of those episodes are memorable because it presents the characters with hard choices.

Come to think of it, a lot of the moral dilemmas TNG presents are solved by Picard doing nothing. He lets the junkie planet crash in "Symbiosis" by refusing to repair their ships. Moriarty decides to release the ship on his own in "Elementary, Dear Data." He lets the planet just stew in their own juices concerning how they've treated their veterans in "The Hunted." He goes along with Worf being discommended for a crime his father didn't commit in "Sins of the Father" to preserve the Klingon Empire. Quite a contrast to the typical TOS episode where Kirk would beam down to a planet for a few hours and go, "OK, I think I've got the gist of how things work here. Here's how things are going to change..."

In retrospect, TNG was a very, very passive show that was more about preserving the status quo than anything else. Which I guess is appropriate, since TNG was originally conceived as a way to keep the Star Trek brand going without having to use the aging original cast. The show had a conservative streak baked into it from day one.
 
The bad guys in "Conspiracy" were originally supposed to be a rogue group of Starfleet officers who thought the Prime Directive was too restrictive, but they became space parasites instead because Starfleet officers could never REALLY go bad.

Post-TOS/TAS Roddenberry conned himself (or poisoned himself creatively) with that frankly boring notion of humans being perfect, "evolved" people, as if that was ever a great template for compelling stories, or giving the viewers any reason to care about the characters. TNG served on a sparkling, perfect platter.

Roddenberry didn't want Picard to lie to Moriarty at the end of "Elementary, Dear Data" to regain control of his ship, so that story just peters out instead of having an actual dramatic climax.

Oh, for.... :rolleyes:

The kid in "The Bonding" was originally supposed to recreate his dead mom on the Holodeck, but it became space aliens who did it instead because mourning isn't a thing in the 24th Century.

Probably. When you create a lifeless realm populated by characters so cold, stoic and looking down their collective noses in judgement at all others, mourning would be treated like some unacceptible animal behavior (and the odd episode where that edict was temporarily broken, as in TNG / S4's "Family" is not hard evidence of acceptance of humans acting like...humans in TNG). Further, mourning leans too much in the direction of natural questions TNG-era Roddenberry, Berman, et al., would never acknowledge, such as (for example) a child dealing with the most devastating kind of loss of his life might (naturally) wonder what happened to the loved one after physical death, etc., and there would be no answer from a ship filled with reanimated bodies posing as "model" people.

Honestly, "Maybe we should be afraid" could've been the mantra for the whole show. I like TNG, but most of the time it was a long way from TOS' "To boldly go" / "Risk is our business" vibe.

Night and day difference, and that was not asking TNG to be TOS, but to remember that the Star Trek concept at its best had its ideological heart and soul fueled by the understanding of what "To Boldly go where no man has gone before" and "Risk is our business!" meant.

TV networks after the success of Star Wars were more than willing to TRY sci fi (Buck Rodgers, BSG, Voyagers!, Manimal, Supertain, the Powers of Matthew Star, Otherworld, Space 1999, Twilight Zone revival, etc)

Space: 1999 predated Star Wars by two years. Supertrain was simply another "traveling" anthology series such as the influential The Love Boat (1976 pilots / series: 1977-86), with single-appearance characters' lives explored with some involvement from the main cast. The Twilight Zone's 1st revival had been an on-again, off-again idea dating back to the period where creator Rod Serling expressed an interest in helming a revival, but that fell through.

Star Wars, or its effect had nothing to do with the aforementioned series development or release.
 
Last edited:
To clarify, I wasn't really arguing that they should've made the Riker switch. I don't know if that would've been a good idea or not. But it was yet another example of the show wimping out and not doing a potentially risky move.

I mean, if you're comparing TNG to 80s stuff like The A-Team, Knight Rider, and MacGyver, then sure, it looks pretty good. (Although, honestly, if you gave me a choice between watching The A-Team and TNG right now, I'd probably choose The A-Team. At least that show had a sense of humor about itself.)

But as David Gerrold pointed out in his book The World of Star Trek, Star Trek works best as a dramatic series, rather than an action or a science fiction series. Ideally, Kirk (or Picard) should have an impossible choice to make at some point during the episode: Does Kirk save his true love Edith Keeler or let her die to preserve history? Does Kirk try to change things in the evil Mirror Universe or just try to escape? Does Picard let Wesley be put to death for violating a planet's arbitrary rule or does he violate the Prime Directive? Does Picard fight for Data's rights as a sentient being or does he let a Starfleet scientist take him apart to make more of him? Does Picard let the Enterprise-C go back in time to almost certain death or give them the firepower they need to win their battle? All of those episodes are memorable because it presents the characters with hard choices.

Come to think of it, a lot of the moral dilemmas TNG presents are solved by Picard doing nothing. He lets the junkie planet crash in "Symbiosis" by refusing to repair their ships. Moriarty decides to release the ship on his own in "Elementary, Dear Data." He lets the planet just stew in their own juices concerning how they've treated their veterans in "The Hunted." He goes along with Worf being discommended for a crime his father didn't commit in "Sins of the Father" to preserve the Klingon Empire. Quite a contrast to the typical TOS episode where Kirk would beam down to a planet for a few hours and go, "OK, I think I've got the gist of how things work here. Here's how things are going to change..."

In retrospect, TNG was a very, very passive show that was more about preserving the status quo than anything else. Which I guess is appropriate, since TNG was originally conceived as a way to keep the Star Trek brand going without having to use the aging original cast. The show had a conservative streak baked into it from day one.

I wouldn't say it was conservative. It was very classic Liberal, JFK liberalism as I like to call it. I mean it's who idea of being a society without a money and solving problems with speeches instead of blowing stuff up or someone acting like Rambo, goes very much about what 80's America was about. Granted the Federation is basically the United Nations if America was in control of the United Nations but it was made mostly for a a American audience. International markets were not considered much in the way they are these days.
 
JFK liberalism as I like to call it.
solving problems with speeches instead of blowing stuff up or someone acting like Rambo

Bay of Pigs, Vietnam... And we didn't go to the moon with a speech. We CHOSE to go to the moon with a speech. After that is was LOTS of money and scientists. We did try to close JFK's missile gap with speeches, I guess. (And building more bombs.)

Rambo was literally from the Johnson (and eventually) Nixon era.
 
IMO it is Kirk/Spock/Bones and the actors playing them which elevates TOS above all Trek. Even if the story is bad the characters are always fun to watch. What I like about TNG is that it's no-conflict rule, which is bad idea 99% of the time but they made it work. I give lots of credit to Michael Pillar.
I like the chemistry between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy too. But I don't think it's unique to TOS. I'd watch Odo and Quark doing improve from the L.A. phone book.
 
I wouldn't say it was conservative. It was very classic Liberal, JFK liberalism as I like to call it.
I meant "conservative" as in "risk adverse" rather than in the American political sense. TNG didn't take a whole lot of chances, is what I was saying. :)

Although Steve Shives had a very good video a few years ago about exactly what in the world of Star Trek appeals to those with conservative political leanings. I seem to recall that part of it was that much of ST was about "The Good Guys" going off to solve the problems of faraway other places, rather than solving the issues in our own backyards.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
If you read The TNG Companion, it's FILLED with examples of more provocative & interesting sounding stories that the TNG writers & producers chickened out of. The bad guys in "Conspiracy" were originally supposed to be a rogue group of Starfleet officers who thought the Prime Directive was too restrictive, but they became space parasites instead because Starfleet officers could never REALLY go bad. Roddenberry didn't want Picard to lie to Moriarty at the end of "Elementary, Dear Data" to regain control of his ship, so that story just peters out instead of having an actual dramatic climax. The kid in "The Bonding" was originally supposed to recreate his dead mom on the Holodeck, but it became space aliens who did it instead because mourning isn't a thing in the 24th Century. :rolleyes: They discussed replacing Commander Riker with his rebellious transporter duplicate Lt. Thomas Riker, but they chickened out of that because the TNG movies were right around the corner. And so on and so on.
I'll have to get back to reading the Companion. I started reading it earlier this year when it was on sale, but I DNF'd it when I switched from reading on my Kindle Fire to a KOBO.

I'll pick it back up in November.
 
I meant "conservative" as in "risk adverse" rather than in the American political sense. TNG didn't take a whole lot of chances, is what I was saying. :)

Although Steve Shives had a very good video a few years ago about exactly what in the world of Star Trek appeals to those with conservative political leanings. I seem to recall that part of it was that much of ST was about "The Good Guys" going off to solve the problems of faraway other places, rather than solving the issues in our own backyards.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Perhaps it's fitting that I watch this on the day of Jane Goodall's death. Because the opening line has a very "Conservatives (or even just Republicans these days) in the Mist" feel.

For those of you who are as naive as I used to be, yes, there are conservatives who LOVE Star Trek!

I mean... You hear rumors, but you can't actually believe it. And then, then I MET one! No! Really!

2 minutes in, well I tried.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top