What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Richard S. Ta]

I love how the Classic Era is the original revival-on-TV era, rather than the actual original era.

Easier with Doctor Who where there’s a clearer divide between cancellation and revival. Trek kind of went in fits and starts until TMP and cemented itself through movies and TNG.

I don’t know if it’s right to call it a Classic Era, but TMP onwards to ENT is when the franchise loomed largest in the cultural consciousness.

 

[FredH]

Easier with Doctor Who where there’s a clearer divide between cancellation and revival. Trek kind of went in fits and starts until TMP and cemented itself through movies and TNG.

I don’t know if it’s right to call it a Classic Era, but TMP onwards to ENT is when the franchise loomed largest in the cultural consciousness.

You think? I don’t know — there’d certainly been awareness of very early, or TAS wouldn’t have happened in the early 70s, and I gather “Trekmania” with posters and novelty books and the beginnings of fandom and such had begun before that. So for me it’s hard to see leaving the actual TOS years out.

 

[Tallguy]

it makes them look like a team of scientists and astronauts, rather than naval officers.

i recall in 1979 the complaint that the TMP uniforms were TOO military looking. (And Goldsmith's theme was too much of a march. And now there is a WEAPONS station!) I think some of the TMP uniforms are the most Navy looking unis in all of Star Trek. Especially Kirk and Sulu's short sleeve outfits. Always reminded me of this:

 

[Richard S. Ta]

You think? I don’t know — there’d certainly been awareness of very early, or TAS wouldn’t have happened in the early 70s, and I gather “Trekmania” with posters and novelty books and the beginnings of fandom and such had begun before that. So for me it’s hard to see leaving the actual TOS years out.

I wouldn’t say leave TOS out as such… Rather that TMP was a hit at the box office and laid the way for more.

TOS was growing popularity in reruns, TAS was done on the cheap and was a moderate success… TMP showed TPTB that spending money on more Star Trek was viable.

I wouldn’t say Classic Era. Maybe something like Golden Age or Imperial Phase. Basically when Star Trek went from being a cult interest to doing gangbusters at the box-office.

 

[FredH]

i recall in 1979 the complaint that the TMP uniforms were TOO military looking. (And Goldsmith's theme was too much of a march. And now there is a WEAPONS station!) I think some of the TMP uniforms are the most Navy looking unis in all of Star Trek. Especially Kirk and Sulu's short sleeve outfits. Always reminded me of this:

Maybe it’s subjective; to me, what you have in that photo looks military, but the TMP ones (other than the Security guys with the armor) look professional-but-relaxed.

You’re not wrong about the TMP milieu BEING more militaristic than the Roddenberry rhetoric would make one expect, though. I was always struck by the “Non-belligerency confirmed” line, implying that belligerency is common enough that we have to confirm it even though we didn’t in the original series. (And Roddenberry’s novelization has Kirk feeling -satisfied- about the Klingon ships’ destruction, and evaluating the V’Ger bolts that hit the Enterprise in terms of “Hey, this sudden blaze of noise could jar a crew for a moment and give us an advantage in combat, I’d better suggest something like this to Starfleet!”)

 

[FredH]

I wouldn’t say leave TOS out as such… Rather that TMP was a hit at the box office and laid the way for more.

TOS was growing popularity in reruns, TAS was done on the cheap and was a moderate success… TMP showed TPTB that spending money on more Star Trek was viable.

I wouldn’t say Classic Era. Maybe something like Golden Age or Imperial Phase. Basically when Star Trek went from being a cult interest to doing gangbusters at the box-office.

Thing is, I remember when TMP came out, it seemed to be widely seen as a boring disappointment. (Not to me, I loved it.) While it must have done well enough for them to be willing to continue, it’s significant that aside from elements they had to keep the same so they could re-use some of the TMP footage, TWOK studiously avoided any reference to the first film at all. So it’s hard to see TMP as being what caused Trek to become a big hit franchise.

(TWOK on the other hand…)

 

[fireproof78]

Thing is, I remember when TMP came out, it seemed to be widely seen as a boring disappointment. (Not to me, I loved it.) While it must have done well enough for them to be willing to continue, it’s significant that aside from elements they had to keep the same so they could re-use some of the TMP footage, TWOK studiously avoided any reference to the first film at all. So it’s hard to see TMP as being what caused Trek to become a big hit franchise.

(TWOK on the other hand…)

TMP was seen as boring, and a bit disappointing, but being the first ever Trek film seemed to be enough of a draw that it did make back its budget enough. It also led to Roddenberry getting to do TNG, which definitely carried on a lot of the stylings of TMP.

TWOK saw a much different process and idea, with Bennett and Meyer (eventually) looking at more naval adventure and "Horatio Hornblower in space" vibes, which is why see a lot more naval stylings, including the idea of a apprentice cruise, training, the uniforms and such. Plus the budget was more limited.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Thing is, I remember when TMP came out, it seemed to be widely seen as a boring disappointment. (Not to me, I loved it.) While it must have done well enough for them to be willing to continue, it’s significant that aside from elements they had to keep the same so they could re-use some of the TMP footage, TWOK studiously avoided any reference to the first film at all. So it’s hard to see TMP as being what caused Trek to become a big hit franchise.

(TWOK on the other hand…)

You’re right about the public reaction to TMP. Thing is though, to have that reaction in the first place, the thing sold tickets. A lot of tickets. It don’t do as well as Paramount hoped, but it did well enough to make more… then TWOK did profit on a much lower budget and the rest of history.

Basically that’s when Star Trek went from being a steady hit in syndication, much like Irving Allen shows, to being… something else.

Like you though, I’m still not entirely comfortable with the placing of any sort of divide or use of terms such as ‘Classic Era’. As I said, much easier when it comes to Doctor Who, but with Trek, far less clear cut.

If I had to break it up, I’d say TOS - TUC stands as its own thing, with everything from TNG to ENT making up a second branch, Kelvin Movies as their own thing and then what we have now.

But honestly, I find this kind of thinking less than useful, because everyone has their own definition. It’s too fragmented to nail down.

 

[FredH]

TMP was seen as boring, and a bit disappointing, but being the first ever Trek film seemed to be enough of a draw that it did make back its budget enough. It also led to Roddenberry getting to do TNG, which definitely carried on a lot of the stylings of TMP.

TWOK saw a much different process and idea, with Bennett and Meyer (eventually) looking at more naval adventure and "Horatio Hornblower in space" vibes, which is why see a lot more naval stylings, including the idea of a apprentice cruise, training, the uniforms and such. Plus the budget was more limited.

Sure. But to my mind, all of these things are showing that there’s no real “break” between the earlier Trek stages, but rather a continuing, rolling wave: TOS —> Trekmania —> TAS —> continuing Trekmania —> TMP —> TWOK+ —> TNG+ —> ENT.

 

[cooleddie74]

I love how the Classic Era is the original revival-on-TV era, rather than the actual original era.

Yep.

Original: 1966-69, 1973-74
Movie Revival: 1979-2002
TV Revival: 1987-2005

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Sure. But to my mind, all of these things are showing that there’s no real “break” between the earlier Trek stages, but rather a continuing, rolling wave: TOS —> Trekmania —> TAS —> continuing Trekmania —> TMP —> TWOK+ —> TNG+ —> ENT.

Genuine question. I wouldn’t know because I wasn’t there… but did TAS continue Trekmania? I always got the impression that it aired but was largely forgotten or disregarded?

 

[FredH]

You’re right about the public reaction to TMP. Thing is though, to have that reaction in the first place, the thing sold tickets. A lot of tickets. It don’t do as well as Paramount hoped, but it did well enough to make more… then TWOK did profit on a much lower budget and the rest of history.

Basically that’s when Star Trek went from being a steady hit in syndication, much like Irving Allen shows, to being… something else.

Like you though, I’m still not entirely comfortable with the placing of any sort of divide or use of terms such as ‘Classic Era’. As I said, much easier when it comes to Doctor Who, but with Trek, far less clear cut.

If I had to break it up, I’d say TOS - TUC stands as its own thing, with everything from TNG to ENT making up a second branch, Kelvin Movies as their own thing and then what we have now.

But honestly, I find this kind of thinking less than useful, because everyone has their own definition. It’s too fragmented to nail down.

Sure. If anything, it’s easier to look at different producer eras, which overlap. (So, roughly Roddenberry TOS - TMP plus TNG S1-2, Bennett TWOK - TFF, Berman TNG - ENT plus TUC.). All of these in a big mass that’s separate from the Abrams and Streaming eras.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

By the by, just found out that until ST09, TMP was the most successful Trek film in terms of ticket sales and that it remains the most successful Trek movie full stop when adjusted for inflation.

 

[FredH]

Genuine question. I wouldn’t know because I wasn’t there… but did TAS continue Trekmania? I always got the impression that it aired but was largely forgotten or disregarded?

Admittedly, my memories are those of a kid in the single-digits, so I couldn’t say for sure. It felt like it to me at the time, since I seem to remember that’s about when I got the Star Trek Puzzle Manual and related poster from Weekly Reader, and saw various posters, joke books, Geoffrey Mandel foldout magazines, a command-yellow kid’s t-shirt, and one of those disk-shooting spring loaded phasers with words STAR TREK printed on the side.

 

[cooleddie74]

TAS was an attempt to capitalize on the white hot numbers for syndicated TOS reruns by making new stories, but using animation to avoid bringing back the series with live actors and sets. Filmation's animators allowed NBC and Paramount to save lots of money and still pay almost all the TOS series regulars to return to voice their characters for new adventures to help flesh out the five-year mission. It just aired on Saturday mornings and thus never took off with most viewers.

 

[Qonundrum]

I wouldn’t say leave TOS out as such… Rather that TMP was a hit at the box office and laid the way for more.

A hit, partially because the bulk of its fans were hyped to see something new, after (a) unending repeats of 79 episodes and (b) the success of Star Wars ensured the franchise would end up on the big screen instead of a TV revival that might have been short-lived at best, if existing scripts and preproduction imagery are anything to go by? Movie reviews of the time were a mixed bag and some ofd those did complain of the pacing and wooden treatment for some of the characters. Even TOS didn't get that wooden.

I wonder how many of the tickets sold were to repeat viewers. The fact Paramount opted for a sequel but demanded a much smaller budget than the unheard-of $40M at the time definitely suggests they were uncertain of the franchise's future because of how TMP otherwise was. (TWOK didn't make quite as much as TMP, not all TMP-likers cared for TWOK, and some probably saw TWOK solely because of Siskel and Ebert liking it more and other better word-of-mouth.)

TOS was growing popularity in reruns, TAS was done on the cheap and was a moderate success… TMP showed TPTB that spending money on more Star Trek was viable.

True to each point, though TAS season 2 was 6 episodes -a far cry from season 1's 16 (a 62.5% episode count reduction). I couldn't find a reason why TAS was canceled, only a Wiki excerpt stating that TAS had more viewership from adults than children, and I suspect the makers of the thing were aiming this at kids.

I wouldn’t say Classic Era. Maybe something like Golden Age or Imperial Phase. Basically when Star Trek went from being a cult interest to doing gangbusters at the box-office.

Definitely golden era; the repeats definitely had found an audience and enough for the attempt at TV revival - which was coinciding with the then-upcoming Paramount TV network, which never was realized... when that flopped, ideas of moving it to the big screen took place, that's when some built sets had to be scrapped because they wouldn't begin to work opposite new audience expectations thanks to Star Wars, though other sets could still be refurbished into something usable.

Whether the Phase II show would have worked or not; written synopses only go so far, the produced versions can add the needed sparkle or plot twists that the synopses cannot show of course.

Maybe the first golden era. TNG's success by 1990 ensured a second one where the mainstream audience also tuned in en masse. I'm not sure I'd equate it as "national institution" like how Doctor Who is in England, but it got up there.

 

[ananta]

I love how the Classic Era is the original revival-on-TV era, rather than the actual original era.

Controversial indeed. TOS used to be called “Classic Trek” so when I hear the word classic I think of TOS.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I'm not sure I'd equate it as "national institution" like how Doctor Who is in England, but it got up there.

I agree Doctor Who is a national institution. Everyone in the UK is at least aware of it.

I’d say Star Trek went way beyond it and became a global phenomenon in a way Doctor Who never has. And I say that as a person who sees myself as more of a Who fan (my first love) than a Trek fan.

 

[Qonundrum]

TAS was an attempt to capitalize on the white hot numbers for syndicated TOS reruns by making new stories, but using animation to avoid bringing back the series with live actors and sets. Filmation's animators allowed NBC and Paramount to save lots of money and still pay almost all the TOS series regulars to return to voice their characters for new adventures to help flesh out the five-year mission. It just aired on Saturday mornings and thus never took off with most viewers.

Not the kids, certainly.

I'm still in awe with much respect for Nimoy standing up for Nichols and Takei and demanding they get brought on board the show or else he would not participate.

While TOS was "The Big Three", everyone in the cast still had an ensemble effect and you'd know if someone wasn't there and it would not be the same at all. Seeing a Trek film without all the crew would be like buying a clothing ensemble but without a shirt or socks; it's all needed. So Spock might not be there and everyone else would be. Would not feel the same. Spock might be but Uhura and Sulu wouldn't be. It would not feel the same even more. If Spock, Uhura and Sulu were not therre, it'd not feel the same even more than that. That said, would the Brady Bunch Variety Hour have worked if they did get the real Jan in? No, the idea and scripts were still dumb. TAS wasn't dumb, but not having the iconic cast there would be dumb.

 

[FredH]

Not the kids, certainly.

I'm still in awe with much respect for Nimoy standing up for Nichols and Takei and demanding they get brought on board the show or else he would not participate.

While TOS was "The Big Three", everyone in the cast still had an ensemble effect and you'd know if someone wasn't there and it would not be the same at all. Seeing a Trek film without all the crew would be like buying a clothing ensemble but without a shirt or socks; it's all needed. So Spock might not be there and everyone else would be. Would not feel the same. Spock might be but Uhura and Sulu wouldn't be. It would not feel the same even more. If Spock, Uhura and Sulu were not therre, it'd not feel the same even more than that. That said, would the Brady Bunch Variety Hour have worked if they did get the real Jan in? No, the idea and scripts were still dumb. TAS wasn't dumb, but not having the iconic cast there would be dumb.

Not necessarily to disagree — I’m as much a fan of the originals as anyone else — but this is also right around the time of the earlier Power Records audio stories, which kept the original characters but had them all voiced by different actors. Which suggests that such an approach could have been taken in TAS — it’s just that doing so would have been insulting to the original actors.