What Are the Ways the Star Wars Prequels Could Be Improved???

[cooleddie74]

You know what they say about those who are right, but for the wrong reasons. You can win the argument in the long run and be seen by history as the victor, but still lose the immediate fight and badly through your own shortsightedness and incompetence.

 

[fireproof78]

Which, I'm hoping the Jedi shown are still correct despite losing, but the PT did not leave me with a great hope regarding the Jedi, and Luke seems to be posed to make some great reveal.

 

[Reverend]

It's not about the Jedi being "correct", it's about loosing them loosing their way on the path. They became more concerned with the preservation of the Order for it's own sake than they were with the purpose for which it was created. Though their individual intentions were good, they became entrenched by the presumption that the Jedi were a force for good in and of themselves, rather than aspiring to be one.

That's not unusual. Very few power structures or institutions escape this trap if they endure long enough, though governments are by far the most susceptible and bureaucracies always morph into aristocracies given time. The Jedi were too busy looking outward for threats that the forgot to look inward and didn't see the rot until it was too late.

Also don't forget that the Sith were not an entirely separate opposing force from without. They came from the Jedi Order too, originally. Most likely in another time when the order had lost it's way and became divided in their purpose.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not about the Jedi being "correct", it's about loosing them loosing their way on the path. They became more concerned with the preservation of the Order for it's own sake than they were with the purpose for which it was created. Though their individual intentions were good, they became entrenched by the presumption that the Jedi were a force for good in and of themselves, rather than aspiring to be one.

That's not unusual. Very few power structures or institutions escape this trap if they endure long enough, though governments are by far the most susceptible and bureaucracies always morph into aristocracies given time. The Jedi were too busy looking outward for threats that the forgot to look inward and didn't see the rot until it was too late.

Also don't forget that the Sith were not an entirely separate opposing force from without. They came from the Jedi Order too, originally. Most likely in another time when the order had lost it's way and became divided in their purpose.

And, as a plot point, that's fantastic and I completely agree with it. You'll get no argument from me, and history is repleat with examples. The struggle I have, is this isn't just a fictional history but a story being told. If the Jedi have lost their way, unfortunately, that doesn't make me inclined to support them, or support Luke's decision to join them. That's the difficulty, because I love exploring these ideas and concepts, but from a story perspective, the PT showcases the bad and not the good.

So, Luke becoming a Jedi? Anakin returning from the Dark Side? Unfortunately, what's shown in the PT doesn't create an emotional through-line that makes me want to support them.

 

[Reverend]

And, as a plot point, that's fantastic and I completely agree with it. You'll get no argument from me, and history is repleat with examples. The struggle I have, is this isn't just a fictional history but a story being told. If the Jedi have lost their way, unfortunately, that doesn't make me inclined to support them, or support Luke's decision to join them. That's the difficulty, because I love exploring these ideas and concepts, but from a story perspective, the PT showcases the bad and not the good.

So, Luke becoming a Jedi? Anakin returning from the Dark Side? Unfortunately, what's shown in the PT doesn't create an emotional through-line that makes me want to support them.

Well at that point, there's no "them" to join really since the Order as an organisation and all the problems that came with it was gone before Luke was even born. He wasn't deciding to join an organisation so much as deciding to follow a path and to live up to an ideal. No doubt at the time he really didn't understand what that even meant, but that's rather besides the point.

Here's the thing though: the story isn't really about how evil defeated good, it's about the downfall of heroes. How even the best of us can become corrupt. Such tales more often than not involve at least an element of hubris. Indeed, without something like that what would be the point in telling it at all?
"One upon a time a bunch of indestructible bastions of heroism were wiped out because the evil bugger was just so very sneaky. The End!"
Your heroes need some agency in their own story or else they're just passive props, moved about by the demands of the plot.

Indeed, read a little mythology and you'll find surprisingly few heroes got a "and then they lived happily ever after."
Most came to very sticky, tragic and often ironic ends, more often than not as a result of their own actions, inaction or just downright bone-headedness.

 

[MacLeod]

I lay all of the problems with Padme on Lucas, not Portman. I think she's given enough other great performances over the years to prove that she really is a good actress.

I would tend to agree, the role of the director is to get the best out of their actors. So did Lucas get the best out of Portman and the others and if not why not. An actor can only do so much with the script they are given, and the script was down to Lucas.

 

[LJones41]

The Prequel Trilogy was no better or worse than the Original Trilogy. You know what? The more I read these comments about the Prequel Trilogy, the more I am disgusted with STAR WARS fandom . . . especially those who believe that everyone shares their hostility toward the Prequel Trilogy. They can't seem to fathom that there are a lot of SW fans who also liked or loved the Prequel Trilogy. It's like that deep down, they don't want to admit it.

 

[fireproof78]

Well at that point, there's no "them" to join really since the Order as an organisation and all the problems that came with it was gone before Luke was even born. He wasn't deciding to join an organisation so much as deciding to follow a path and to live up to an ideal. No doubt at the time he really didn't understand what that even meant, but that's rather besides the point.

That's a fair point, but I am discussing seeing the story from a linear point of view. From an audience standpoint, the Jedi are note exactly an ideal to move towards, which is my larger point of narrative structure.

Here's the thing though: the story isn't really about how evil defeated good, it's about the downfall of heroes. How even the best of us can become corrupt. Such tales more often than not involve at least an element of hubris. Indeed, without something like that what would be the point in telling it at all?
"One upon a time a bunch of indestructible bastions of heroism were wiped out because the evil bugger was just so very sneaky. The End!"
Your heroes need some agency in their own story or else they're just passive props, moved about by the demands of the plot.

Indeed, read a little mythology and you'll find surprisingly few heroes got a "and then they lived happily ever after."
Most came to very sticky, tragic and often ironic ends, more often than not as a result of their own actions, inaction or just downright bone-headedness.

I think Luke has fantastic agency, but I honestly don't feel the same about Anakin, hence my commentary. They do feel, as you stated, like passive props, and the Jedi are not shown to be something for Luke to move towards, if you move from the PT to the OT.

And, I'm quite aware that mythological stories rarely end in a "happily ever after."

The Prequel Trilogy was no better or worse than the Original Trilogy. You know what? The more I read these comments about the Prequel Trilogy, the more I am disgusted with STAR WARS fandom . . . especially those who believe that everyone shares their hostility toward the Prequel Trilogy. They can't seem to fathom that there are a lot of SW fans who also liked or loved the Prequel Trilogy. It's like that deep down, they don't want to admit it.

I don't believe anyone shares my opinion about anything. That's my opinion...period.

Not sure what's so disgusting about people not liking the PT, or the fact that statements regarding it being no better or worse than the OT are subjective in nature, and really haven't been illustrated to help others understand a different point of view.

There are lots of people who love the PT, and that's fine by me. It doesn't mean I have to.

 

[suarezguy]

If the Jedi have lost their way, unfortunately, that doesn't make me inclined to support them, or support Luke's decision to join them.

In the OT, well TESB and RotJ (he was somewhat manipulated in ANH), Luke is respectful of Obi-Wan and Yoda yet follows his own judgments, seems to want to be his own kind of Jedi.

 

[Reverend]

That's a fair point, but I am discussing seeing the story from a linear point of view. From an audience standpoint, the Jedi are note exactly an ideal to move towards, which is my larger point of narrative structure.

Well again, it depends on whether you're defining the Jedi as the monolithic organisation we glimpse in the PT (really, we don't see much of how they really operate on a large scale) or the Jedi as a credo.
Remember that the audience isn't supposed to be invested in a bunch of old statues and towers, but in the characters the story follows who embody this aforementioned ideal. In this case it is Qui-Gon and later Obi Wan who are the audience's exemplars, not the council and that it what look is striving towards. (I don't count Yoda since in terms of storytelling mechanics, he plays a different if parallel role. Point being, Luke is never going to "be" a Yoda figure.)

I think Luke has fantastic agency, but I honestly don't feel the same about Anakin, hence my commentary. They do feel, as you stated, like passive props, and the Jedi are not shown to be something for Luke to move towards, if you move from the PT to the OT.

Oh they have agency alright; they *actively* make bad decisions. What gives them agency is that you can understand *why* they make these unwise decisions, you understand their motivations and reasoning. There's a big difference between this and 'The Prometheus School of Bad Decision Making Because the Script Says So.'
It's not the plot that's moving around, it's Sidious.

 

[JD]

The Prequel Trilogy was no better or worse than the Original Trilogy. You know what? The more I read these comments about the Prequel Trilogy, the more I am disgusted with STAR WARS fandom . . . especially those who believe that everyone shares their hostility toward the Prequel Trilogy. They can't seem to fathom that there are a lot of SW fans who also liked or loved the Prequel Trilogy. It's like that deep down, they don't want to admit it.

I'm sorry, but I really don't think there's anything more to people not liking than them simply thinking they aren't very good movies. People just have different tastes, that's all. There are a lot of movies I like that other people don't, like the prequels, the Pirates of the Carribean and Matrix sequels, I, Fraknestein, and The Last Witchhunter. I couldn't imagine getting as upset about other people not liking them as you are when it comes to the prequels. I've just come to accept that I obviously have very different tastes from other people and moved on. If they come up in conversation, I might talk a bit about why I like them, but I'm not about to accuse people of being scared of them, or really liking them deep down and just not knowing it.

 

[fireproof78]

Well again, it depends on whether you're defining the Jedi as the monolithic organisation we glimpse in the PT (really, we don't see much of how they really operate on a large scale) or the Jedi as a credo.
Remember that the audience isn't supposed to be invested in a bunch of old statues and towers, but in the characters the story follows who embody this aforementioned ideal. In this case it is Qui-Gon and later Obi Wan who are the audience's exemplars, not the council and that it what look is striving towards. (I don't count Yoda since in terms of storytelling mechanics, he plays a different if parallel role. Point being, Luke is never going to "be" a Yoda figure.)

I guess that's the difference for me. There is never a "Luke" figure that I identify with in the PT and want to see succeed.It's not the Jedi order as a whole, necessarily, that I want to be successful, but there is also a sense that the Jedi are not making good decisions, and feel less than ideal, or even trying to live up to the idea. Qui-Gon might come close, but I'm less invested in him so it's hard to call him an "audience exemplar" when his maverick ways are dismissed by Obi-Wan.

Oh they have agency alright; they *actively* make bad decisions. What gives them agency is that you can understand *why* they make these unwise decisions, you understand their motivations and reasoning. There's a big difference between this and 'The Prometheus School of Bad Decision Making Because the Script Says So.'
It's not the plot that's moving around, it's Sidious.

Eh, in some cases, yes. In other cases, like Anakin is in love, feel more like because the script says so.

That might just be me. I can see the romance working on one level, and on another, it really feels very forced.

 

[Reverend]

guess that's the difference for me. There is never a "Luke" figure that I identify with in the PT and want to see succeed.It's not the Jedi order as a whole, necessarily, that I want to be successful, but there is also a sense that the Jedi are not making good decisions, and feel less than ideal, or even trying to live up to the idea. Qui-Gon might come close, but I'm less invested in him so it's hard to call him an "audience exemplar" when his maverick ways are dismissed by Obi-Wan.

Well that's how character arcs work, no? Obi-Wan starts off in TPM as the most Jedi of Jedi. A dedicated student, respectful and obedient to his master with an unshakeable faith in the wisdom of the council. Also, a little stiff and inflexible since he's still very much the temple raised padawan, despite having been by Qui-Gon's side for going on a decade.
By AotC he's a *lot* more worldly, relaxed and sure of himself. Fast forward to RotS and he's a seasoned veteran and still respectful of the council (since he is on it himself by now), there's more of an edge of pragmatism about it. He doesn't like where they're headed, but much like Yoda can't see a way around it.

Anyway, I'd hardly characterise Obi-Wan as dismissive towards Qui-Gon. He's frustrated that his master whom he deeply respects has a habit of making things difficult for himself by constantly butting heads with the council.
The way I look at it, Qui-Gon is meant to represent the Jedi of old. Wise, independently minded, in tune with the living force and always rooted in the moment. Obi-Wan is a more of a modern Jedi. Noble, well meaning, but hampered by a slightly dogmatic attitude.

Eh, in some cases, yes. In other cases, like Anakin is in love, feel more like because the script says so.

That might just be me. I can see the romance working on one level, and on another, it really feels very forced.

The execution was certainly very clumsy to say the least, but from a purely conceptual standpoint it makes perfect sense that he'd fall for Padme almost right out of the gate.

 

[suarezguy]

I'm sorry, but I really don't think there's anything more to people not liking than them simply thinking they aren't very good movies. People just have different tastes, that's all.

Part of the reaction and strength of the reaction, though, I think is comparing them to the OT. I think people are harsher against them for having excessive CGI and a weak love story due to that comparison while they're more indifferent or accepting of those flaws/aspects in other movies.

 

[fireproof78]

Well that's how character arcs work, no? Obi-Wan starts off in TPM as the most Jedi of Jedi. A dedicated student, respectful and obedient to his master with an unshakeable faith in the wisdom of the council. Also, a little stiff and inflexible since he's still very much the temple raised padawan, despite having been by Qui-Gon's side for going on a decade.
By AotC he's a *lot* more worldly, relaxed and sure of himself. Fast forward to RotS and he's a seasoned veteran and still respectful of the council (since he is on it himself by now), there's more of an edge of pragmatism about it. He doesn't like where they're headed, but much like Yoda can't see a way around it.

Anyway, I'd hardly characterise Obi-Wan as dismissive towards Qui-Gon. He's frustrated that his master whom he deeply respects has a habit of making things difficult for himself by constantly butting heads with the council.
The way I look at it, Qui-Gon is meant to represent the Jedi of old. Wise, independently minded, in tune with the living force and always rooted in the moment. Obi-Wan is a more of a modern Jedi. Noble, well meaning, but hampered by a slightly dogmatic attitude.



The execution was certainly very clumsy to say the least, but from a purely conceptual standpoint it makes perfect sense that he'd fall for Padme almost right out of the gate.

Again, from a strictly conceptual point of view, I can agree, and even can see the love story working out in a very mythological way. But, perhaps it is the clumsiness, or the hints at history, without feeling like these are real people with a real relationship that falls flat for me.

Of the characters, I think Obi-Wan is the best, and most dynamic in terms of seeing his growth, having some agency and decision making. I think he presents as embodying more the idealism of the Jedi, and then moving towards the pragmatism that you described, with the dogma that, unfortunately, comes with the Jedi of the era ("only a Sith deals in absolutes" I think is a great hallmark of that). Definitely showcases the growth from ROTS to ANH, and more flexibility.

 

[DonIago]

Isn't the statement "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" itself an absolutism?

Then there's Yoda's "Do or do not, there is no try."

 

[fireproof78]

Isn't the statement "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" itself an absolutism?

Then there's Yoda's "Do or do not, there is no try."

Yes, Obi-Wan's statement is an absolute, as is Yoda's. Hence my comment that it was a reflection of Jedi dogmatism, rather than idealism.

 

[Nightowl1701]

I lay all of the problems with Padme on Lucas, not Portman. I think she's given enough other great performances over the years to prove that she really is a good actress.

Actually, I have to cut Lucas some slack here. Natalie did just fine in the political and battle scenes (inc. deleted scenes), in all three movies. BUT - and we've seen this in other films of hers, most notably the Thor films, hence why nobody was too sorry she was gone from Ragnarok - she can't 'act' attraction/chemistry/romance if her life depended on it. If Natalie herself ain't feeling it, it don't show up on screen. Yeah, Hayden had the worst lines in the world to deal with (face it, DiCaprio couldn't have done any better with the sand or fireplace speeches), but he was putting forth the effort; I never once doubted his Anakin was genuinely into her. Natalie, for whatever reason, just plain refused to turn it on.

 

[cooleddie74]

The deleted scenes from Episode II where Padmé and Anakin visit and spend time with her family should have been left in. Would they have dragged the movie down and spoiled the dramatic pacing? Eh. Maybe so. But it's Episode II.

How much worse could it have gotten?

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[LJones41]

But, my point stands that in the OT, the Jedi are heroes, and something to aspire to, and in the PT, the Jedi are selfish, myopic, standoffish, jerks and entirely unsympathetic. They were outmaneuvered by one Sith Lord with little to no indication that the Jedi became wiser by the end.

The Jedi were "heroes, and something to aspire to" in the OT, due to Obi-Wan's propaganda in "A New Hope" that Luke and movie audiences bought without questioning. Yet, audiences learn in "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" (still the OT) that the Jedi were not as perfect or ideal as the audiences (and Luke) were led to believe. Lucas merely expanded on their imperfections in the PT.