Spoilers What are the golems actually?

[Racefuel]

Picard was still a golem in the "alternate" universe from S2, was said in Ep 1

The current Picard is a copy, a near perfect copy, but still a copy. There was a big snafu with Mem Alpha that listed him as dead ( Still does) but unlike now, had a new entry with Picard (Golem) Now there just combined.
Goes back to the transporter, does it destroy the original, and make a copy somewhere else ( Like what an actual transporter if it existed would do) or is it the same person just reasembled.

Don't forget Grey from Discovery, They are in a body, but the original died, and the new one just has memories copied from the symbiote to the new golem.

Spock on the other hand did die ( a quite grusum painfull death) but his original body was "reset"? just his memories were restored.

As for Q, I kind of wish he finger clicked picard back to life. Becauase at that point, he was just talking to the copy, just like data's memories in Season 1

I don't think it was a SNAFU, I think it was just the braintrust at MA wanting to dictate their particular view of Trek and resistance to the new trend.

Thankfully I think pressure forced them to not be..themselves over it.

But keep in mind Star Trek is about exploring what it is to be alive, what is human, etc. The question of "Is conciousness more than memories" and "What is a soul?" has been going on for a long time.

Its clear that whatever unquantifiable, unknowable, whatever it is..a soul, spirit, divine energy, whatever...did make the transition from Picards original body to his new Synth body.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't think it was a SNAFU, I think it was just the braintrust at MA wanting to dictate their particular view of Trek and resistance to the new trend.

Thankfully I think pressure forced them to not be..themselves over it.

But keep in mind Star Trek is about exploring what it is to be alive, what is human, etc. The question of "Is conciousness more than memories" and "What is a soul?" has been going on for a long time.

Its clear that whatever unquantifiable, unknowable, whatever it is..a soul, spirit, divine energy, whatever...did make the transition from Picards original body to his new Synth body.

There is no transfer of human soul energy between robots or humans and robots. Made up magic science can record personalities with very little effort, and you could print that out on paper, or move cut/copy and paste it from some where to anywhere else.

What are Little Girls made of/The Schizoid man.

Arrrgh!

Just finished PIcard S02E10.

Not an Alt Universe combat Chasis.

Q slipped them in, overwrote and murdered the cast, depositing them into younger versions of their original bodies, 5 minutes before the Stargazer blew up, which did not blow up any more, which means that Picard is a Golem, Seven has her original assimilation record, Elnore lives, and Raffi is sill ravaged with decades of crippling drug abuse and has probably still cut 90 years off her life expectancy.

Sorry.

 

[SG-17]

I thought it was pretty clear that Picard's golem was a biosynthetic android. It has organs, flesh and blood, just constructed rather than grown. The biggest functional difference between a born human and a golem being a positronic matrix in the brain and the ability to adjust attributes like strength, age, etc when "setting" the golem.

Datalore's model of a golem is clearly different in that its got more mechanical parts, but it does appear to be at least partially organic.


Also, its been settled that Picard is Picard, not a copy no matter how upset it makes you personally. His mind was transferred not copied. Its been done before in Trek numerous times.

 

[Ronin'sCreamyCandle]

When we were introduced to the new Picard (golem) in the end of the first season, we got the following impressions:

- The "soul" (consciousness and memories) were transferred from Picard's original body to the new golem body.

- Gollem is actually an undefined entity that, after transferring Picard's soul, evolved into a physically identical Picard as the original.

- Gollem Picard is actually identical to the original Picard, the same organic biological body. Or perhaps it is more accurate to say a biosynthetic body. But his body is not robotically made of a mechanism of plastic, metal and other advanced materials. It's totally organic. It's as if the DNA was copied from the original body into the golem.

- Golem Picard does not have any supernatural qualities. He is mortal as the original Picard.

- When the golem Picard was hit by a car in season 2, he behaved completely human. He fell unconscious. He was bleeding (human blood), and the doctor could not tell that he was doing something different without being a human being.

- Something that is not clear to me:

The human body consists of organs and cells. DNA is our basic building block. And Picard's golem is like based on positronics. What does that actually mean? Does gollem basically have DNA or something else as building block? Is Picard advenced android or actually a biosynthetic human?

- Now another golem appeared. It is a golem that combines the memories and consciousness (in a word, soul) of Data, Lore, Soong, Lal and B4.

- Geordi said a couple of times that Dati was given the opportunity to be different, more human.

- Are Picard's golem different from Data's golem?

Look at the interior of Data's golem. This doesn't look human, organic, biological, or biosynthetic at all. It looks mechanical just like the original Data. It looks like an android, robot. This is Data/Lore interior from the last episode? So by this it seems that Picard golem and Data/Lore golem are completely different by nature and by interior structure. Data/Lore is more like android golem, and Picard more like human golem.

A terrible plot device by Chabon.

 

[Yistaan]

If only Roger Korby had used this tech instead.

 

[Racefuel]

A terrible plot device by Chabon.

As opposed to someone who died of massive radition poisoning being resurrected by a magical planet with healing powers?

Or is only a terrible plot device because NuTrek=bad

 

[Verteron]

According to dialogue. It's an image (copy) of his consciousness. So Picard Is dead. There is now only robot Picard. His organic self is completely dead including his original brain and memories.

This certainly could be the case but I wonder why Q would be the least bit interested in something that is just a copy of Picard, rather than Picard himself. That Q was willing to treat Picard-golem as an old friend makes me think that Picard's consciousness was transferred, not copied. Q would see through a copy. I doubt he'd have much interest.

We have previously seen in Star Trek many times that consciousness (in the ST universe anyway) is special, can move between bodies (Spock Amok), can even exist as energy (Lonely Among Us), or outside the body (Cathexis), and can have a direct influence on spacetime (demonstrated by the Traveller). This suggests to me that consciousness is somehow extracorporeal in ST, and can 'move' the original person to a new place or state of existence without it effectively ending the old existence.

It's not something I see a lot of evidence for in the real world, but hell, we don't know. The soul could be real in some scientific sense, perhaps on a quantum level or as a fundamental field of the universe.

Or, we could just be MeatGPT.

ST clearly has an answer that we don't, yet, and in the absence of a real answer I'm happy to suspend disbelief enough to accept Picard as still being Picard.

 

[fireproof78]

I mean, TOS had no problem with consciousness transfer and it happened multiple times.

I do wonder if Sargon and his people would have been happier with the golems?

 

[Racefuel]

I mean, TOS had no problem with consciousness transfer and it happened multiple times.

I do wonder if Sargon and his people would have been happier with the golems?

Every series has had something that indicates that "spirit" transfer went along with memories and personality, etc.

I feel like people are just focusing on it now because NuTrek and NuStarWars is bad and only the past is pure and good.

 

[Yistaan]

NuStarWars is bad and only the past is pure and good.

The hilarious thing is the SW elitists openly mocked Palpatine's resurrection in the 1990s comic books and boasted how Disney was so deep and superior that it would never stoop to such antics. Then Rise of Skywalker arrived. Not that it stopped the Disney elitists for long, they found something else to feel superior about now with Andor and its supposedly highbrow storytelling.

 

[fireproof78]

Every series has had something that indicates that "spirit" transfer went along with memories and personality, etc.

I feel like people are just focusing on it now because NuTrek and NuStarWars is bad and only the past is pure and good.

True enough. To me it's just another Tuesday in Star Trek when a spirit transfers.

he hilarious thing is the SW elitists openly mocked Palpatine's resurrection in the 1990s comic books and boasted how Disney was so deep and superior that it would never stoop to such antics. Then Rise of Skywalker arrived.

I still think TROS is better than how it was done in the books. I guess I got to be elitist about something...

 

[Timofnine]

If you would like to hear more about the history of the word Golem you can look here:

The origins of the word Golem

A golem is a creature formed out of a lifeless substance such as dust or earth that is brought to life by ritual incantations and sequences of Hebrew letters. The golem, brought into being by a human creator, becomes a helper, a companion, or a rescuer of an imperiled Jewish community.

Unless the word is actually spelt Gollum, in which case it refers to this:

Gollum character from Lord of the Rings.

To be honest the word ‘Golem’ or ‘Gollum’ referring to the reborn Picard and now the new Data has always irked me, it just does not sound technical enough. Why not just say ‘synth body’ or ‘bioneural cell sack’?

 

[Racefuel]

The hilarious thing is the SW elitists openly mocked Palpatine's resurrection in the 1990s comic books and boasted how Disney was so deep and superior that it would never stoop to such antics. Then Rise of Skywalker arrived. Not that it stopped the Disney elitists for long, they found something else to feel superior about now with Andor and its supposedly highbrow storytelling.

God if that isn't the truth. I got so tired of the "true fans" smelling their own farts and loving the aroma over Andor.

 

[fireproof78]

To be honest the word ‘Golem’ or ‘Gollum’ referring to the reborn Picard and now the new Data has always irked me, it just does not sound technical enough.

It's Soong. He's quirky.

God if that isn't the truth. I got so tired of the "true fans" smelling their own farts and loving the aroma over Andor.

Who cares? They still cheer over the demise of Disney+ shows and the firing of Kennedy. It's hypocritical nonsense at this point.

 

[Ronin'sCreamyCandle]

As opposed to someone who died of massive radition poisoning being resurrected by a magical planet with healing powers?

Or is only a terrible plot device because NuTrek=bad

It's bad because Golems can be used to further damage legacy characters and confuse the fans by putting them in Golems. A one time planet healing on Spock that the writers quickly blew up was smart.

 

[fireproof78]

It's bad because Golems can be used to further damage legacy characters and confuse the fans by putting them in Golems.

Yeah, fans! Don't be so stupid as to get confused!

Sorry, I hate that argument. If my mom who despises science fiction can follow that Chris Pine is supposed to be the same as Shatner Kirk then fans will not get confused.

 

[Racefuel]

It's bad because Golems can be used to further damage legacy characters and confuse the fans by putting them in Golems. A one time planet healing on Spock that the writers quickly blew up was smart.

As opposed to the other magic box of the week instances of people coming back to life in Star Trek.

I really don't think the Star Trek community needs to be hand held like some think it does

 

[fireproof78]

As opposed to the other magic box of the week instances of people coming back to life in Star Trek.

I really don't think the Star Trek community needs to be hand held like some think it does

It's hilarious to me the irony of a base that claims to be super intellectual and smarter than the average bear, and more sophisticated than that other scifi franchise with the laser swords, yet doesn't trust the audience to be able to figure out what characters are being acted by whom?

How did this franchise survive TWOK to TSFS?

 

[Timofnine]

Yeah, fans! Don't be so stupid as to get confused!

Sorry, I hate that argument. If my mom who despises science fiction can follow that Chris Pine is supposed to be the same as Shatner Kirk then fans will not get confused.

What did your mum think of Paul Wesley Kirk? Did she get that too, or did she get confused?

 

[fireproof78]

What did your mum think of Paul Wesley Kirk? Did she get that too, or did she get confused?

She didn't watch it. My mom loathes science fiction. That she watched ST 09 was as a favor to my dad and that's about it.