Were Time Lords Ever Nice?

[Kolrad]

I'm a huge fan of the new series-- there have been very few episodes I haven't liked.

But I have to admit that I was a little disappointed by how the Time Lord society were revealed in "The End of Time" to be past any point of redemption.

The fact that the Doctor stole the TARDIS certainly indicates that he disagrees with the way the other Time Lords see things. But there had also been little hints that the Time Lords had a positive role as guardians of time.

Remember in "Father's Day," when the Doctor tells Rose "My people would have put a stop to this" when they see the Reapers wiping out the population of Earth? There was the sense that the Doctor now bore the weight of doing the best that he could on his own to protect the universe now that the Time Lords were all gone.

Then you have the loving way in which the Doctor spoke about Gallifrey. (The ending of "Gridlock" is still one of my favorite scenes in a show with a lot of great ones.) Surely it wasn't just the planet he loved?

Of course, I haven't seen many of the classic stories, and it's possible that I would have found the portrayal of Gallifreyans in "The End of Time" more consistent if I had seen the old episodes.

I suspect that the idea was that we were seeing only the worst of the Time Lords, at their very worst, because of all the incomprehensible madness of the Time War. (The line about the Nightmare child and his army of Never-Weres and Meanwhiles, however that went, wasn't very successful in evoking the proper sense of horror, at least not for me.)

Perhaps from Gallifrey's point of view, they had been fighting the Time War for millions of years and every noble intention had been long forgotten?

 

[MacLeod]

^Time Lord soceity had been shown to be corrupt for a long time. Maybe not as bad in the 1963-1989 run of the series.

 

[Sci]

Of course, I haven't seen many of the classic stories, and it's possible that I would have found the portrayal of Gallifreyans in "The End of Time" more consistent if I had seen the old episodes.

I don't see any inconsistency there. Haven't you ever seen the way people can simultaneously love and yet the communities they come from? The guy who came from a small town and hated it, was glad to be rid of it, yet still had a soft spot in his heart for it? The man who hated living in the big city every day he was there, but spent years missing things about it afterwards?

People can have complex, contradictory feelings about their homes.

 

[The Wormhole]

But I have to admit that I was a little disappointed by how the Time Lord society were revealed in "The End of Time" to be past any point of redemption.

The fact that the Doctor stole the TARDIS certainly indicates that he disagrees with the way the other Time Lords see things. But there had also been little hints that the Time Lords had a positive role as guardians of time.

Remember in "Father's Day," when the Doctor tells Rose "My people would have put a stop to this" when they see the Reapers wiping out the population of Earth? There was the sense that the Doctor now bore the weight of doing the best that he could on his own to protect the universe now that the Time Lords were all gone.

Then you have the loving way in which the Doctor spoke about Gallifrey. (The ending of "Gridlock" is still one of my favorite scenes in a show with a lot of great ones.) Surely it wasn't just the planet he loved?

Of course, I haven't seen many of the classic stories, and it's possible that I would have found the portrayal of Gallifreyans in "The End of Time" more consistent if I had seen the old episodes.

The Time Lords of Classic Who were intergalactic douchebags, which the Sixth Doctor delivered a monologue desribing them thusly. However they did have the responisbly of watching over and "policing" time and did mete out penalties to those who violated the laws of time.

Of coruse, the Time Lords themselves seemed to be above their own laws. Though the Doctor was punished and indeed executed for stealing the TARDIS and getting involved in the affairs of others, it seems there is no rules against changing the timeline. When the Doctor points out to the Master in Last of the Time Lords that he's doing just that the Master replies "I'm a Time Lord, it's my right." A fact which the Doctor does not dispute. If altering the timeline to suit one's desires was considered a Time Lord's right, it's doubtful they were nice people.

Also, in The End of Time when Wilf points out that the Doctor has always spoken positively about the Time Lords, the Doctor responds "that's how I choose to remember them, as the Time Lords of old." So yes, they were once noble and enlightened, but those days are past.

The Doctor is simply romanticizing the Time Lords and Gallifrey, remembering only the positive aspects while choosing not to acknowledge the horrible parts.

 

[Christopher]

This thread is starting to repeat itself. Are we in a chronic hysteresis?

Though the Doctor was punished and indeed executed for stealing the TARDIS and getting involved in the affairs of others....

Well, in retrospect it became an "execution" when "The Deadly Assassin" established the 12-regeneration limit. But when it happened in "The War Games," that rule was many years in the future, so it was treated just as changing the Doctor's appearance so he wouldn't be recognized by his enemies (not that that was ever followed up on).

Also, in The End of Time when Wilf points out that the Doctor has always spoken positively about the Time Lords, the Doctor responds "that's how I choose to remember them, as the Time Lords of old." So yes, they were once noble and enlightened, but those days are past.

More likely, they always had both good and bad qualities, but Time Lords are as guilty of nostalgia and (as you say) romanticizing the past as humans are. Most cultures have myths of some idyllic past time when their society lived up to all its ideals, with modern times being degenerate and fallen from that height, but it's pretty much always bunk.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I would like the Time Lords back...but not constantly involved in the Doctor's life. Just knowing that Gallifrey and the Time Lords are around is enough. I think if they come back and interact with the Doctor too much that it would take away from the point of the Time War, really it would render it pointless IMO. There would also have to be a reason for them to return.

I would disagree that the Doctor has chosen to ignore the bad traits of his people, he sent them back into the Time War on the last day after all...he could have done just done that to Rassilon...instead he sent everyone back there. He has romanticized them because he misses them. More importantly, I'd like at some point for us to see or for him to be reunited with his family, because even more so than his own people, that is who he misses the most IMO.

@Christopher, welcome to the Doctor Who Forum...things get rehashed and constantly debated to no resolution all the time. Doesn't really matter what is discussed. Just the way things are here

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I agree about the other two. I tend to think they should bring back Lalla Ward by having an episode or two set in E-Space.

I would love to see a Romana in NuWho, Bonus points if Lalla Ward played the Character. The Audios actually had her leaving E-Space, so, wouldn't even need to be E-Space, but, E-Space would be cool, give them a chance to try some wacky new things.

Well, E-Space is a logical refuge from the Time War. They could have her return, but flee again at the end of the war.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I agree about the other two. I tend to think they should bring back Lalla Ward by having an episode or two set in E-Space.

I would love to see a Romana in NuWho, Bonus points if Lalla Ward played the Character. The Audios actually had her leaving E-Space, so, wouldn't even need to be E-Space, but, E-Space would be cool, give them a chance to try some wacky new things.

Well, E-Space is a logical refuge from the Time War. They could have her return, but flee again at the end of the war.

Which is exactly what I've been saying for years. I keep my fingers crossed...

 

[TedShatner10]

I'm a huge fan of the new series-- there have been very few episodes I haven't liked.

But I have to admit that I was a little disappointed by how the Time Lord society were revealed in "The End of Time" to be past any point of redemption.

Rassilon was executing other Time Lords on the spot for having different opinions, so no, I wouldn't say they were beyond redemption (not all of them). And we may as well have the Time Lords back, when the Daleks have been pretty much back for good since "The Stolen Earth"-"Journey's End" (the worse season finale of NuWho).

 

[TedShatner10]

ALSO:

I personally think of the Time Lord leadership as smug, self-appointed moderators of the cosmos, but at heart are not the omnicidal nutters they ended up being by the end of the Time War - they ironically set out to protect the universe, but to paraphrase Babylon 5, they must've gotten so obsessed with their enemy for so long they became the enemy along the way (and we saw a lot of that in the 9th Doctor in "Dalek").

And not every Time Lord in Rassilon's entourage wanted to go along with his crazy plan (that unfortunate Time Lady who got dusted by Rassilon's gauntlet for her misgivings, that other woman who gazed at the 10th Doctor).

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ The Lady that gazed at the Doctor was meant to be his mother. She is the one who spoke with Wilf at the Church and later on during the Queen's Christmas speech. RTD has stated that she is his mother in the book. A lot of fans, including me thought she might be Susan.

The Time Lord High Council must have been really desperate in those last days of the war to make the decision to resurrect Rassilion. Not really a decision a rationale group would make under normal conditions. They must've figured they needed a leader that was as ruthless and demanding as their enemy was.

 

[Sci]

The Time Lord High Council must have been really desperate in those last days of the war to make the decision to resurrect Rassilion. Not really a decision a rationale group would make under normal conditions. They must've figured they needed a leader that was as ruthless and demanding as their enemy was.

It does present an interesting parallel to what the Daleks did, in apparently subordinating themselves at the war's start to Davros (until he disappeared into the jaws of the Nightmare Child).

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ The Lady that gazed at the Doctor was meant to be his mother. She is the one who spoke with Wilf at the Church and later on during the Queen's Christmas speech. RTD has stated that she is his mother in the book. A lot of fans, including me thought she might be Susan.

The Time Lord High Council must have been really desperate in those last days of the war to make the decision to resurrect Rassilion. Not really a decision a rationale group would make under normal conditions. They must've figured they needed a leader that was as ruthless and demanding as their enemy was.

Well, we also know that they resurrected The Master for the same purpose, so that alone shows how desperate they must have been!

 

[Christopher]

I've always wondered why everyone assumes that was the Rassilon instead of just a namesake, Rassilon XXXVI or something. I mean, I gather that is Word of God in this case, but within the episode itself, I don't recall any dialogue to indicate that he was the original.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I believe RTD confirmed in his book as well that it was the Rassilon. I could be wrong on this. They resurrected the Master as well as was pointed, I don't know why Rasslion wouldn't be the Rasslion. I also remember reading somewhere that RTD wanted to use the actor from the "Five Doctors" originally.

 

[Sindatur]

I believe RTD confirmed in his book as well that it was the Rassilon. I could be wrong on this. They resurrected the Master as well as was pointed, I don't know why Rasslion wouldn't be the Rasslion. I also remember reading somewhere that RTD wanted to use the actor from the "Five Doctors" originally.

Yea, it doesn't make any sense that it wouldn't be The Rassilon. I mean why they ressurect someone named Rassilon, and have it be anyone other than The Rassilon?

 

[Sci]

I've always wondered why everyone assumes that was the Rassilon instead of just a namesake, Rassilon XXXVI or something. I mean, I gather that is Word of God in this case, but within the episode itself, I don't recall any dialogue to indicate that he was the original.

I mean, yeah, it's one possible interpretation, but since it was already established that the Time Lords had been resurrecting infamous personages from their history to fight the Daleks, and since having it be the founder of Time Lord society himself who leads the Time Lords into universal genocide and lunacy helps create a thematic unity to the idea that the Time Lords had become fundamentally corrupt by the war, it makes things more emotionally compelling to interpret the Lord President as being the Rassilon.

 

[Christopher]

^Yeah, I get all that; it just seems odd to me that nobody even seemed to consider any alternative interpretation. For me, it's not only good sense to consider alternative possibilities, it's a lot more fun and interesting to apply my imagination to finding multiple interpretations rather than just accepting the most obvious interpretation without question.

It could've been a resurrected Rassilon, sure, but from in-story evidence alone, it couldn't be ruled out that it was just someone named after Rassilon. I mean, Rassilon was the Time Lord's great cultural founder hero -- there have probably been millions of Gallifreyans named in his honor. Or it could've been that Rassilon's name became a generic title for Time Lord rulers, in the same way that Gaius Julius Caesar's cognomen became a title used by his successors, with later Roman emperors being addressed as "Caesar," German rulers being "Kaiser," and Slavic rulers being "Czar/Tsar." Even admitting that the "resurrected original Rassilon" interpretation is the favored one, it's still worthwhile to think about the other possibilities, at least in the absence of overt confirmation.

 

[Sci]

^Yeah, I get all that; it just seems odd to me that nobody even seemed to consider any alternative interpretation. For me, it's not only good sense to consider alternative possibilities, it's a lot more fun and interesting to apply my imagination to finding multiple interpretations rather than just accepting the most obvious interpretation without question.

It could've been a resurrected Rassilon, sure, but from in-story evidence alone, it couldn't be ruled out that it was just someone named after Rassilon. I mean, Rassilon was the Time Lord's great cultural founder hero -- there have probably been millions of Gallifreyans named in his honor. Or it could've been that Rassilon's name became a generic title for Time Lord rulers, in the same way that Gaius Julius Caesar's cognomen became a title used by his successors, with later Roman emperors being addressed as "Caesar," German rulers being "Kaiser," and Slavic rulers being "Czar/Tsar." Even admitting that the "resurrected original Rassilon" interpretation is the favored one, it's still worthwhile to think about the other possibilities, at least in the absence of overt confirmation.

Fair enough. Though I would point out that the title of the leader of the Time Lord state seems to have been "Lord President" -- which I suppose could have been used in conjunction with the title of "Rassilon," but it seems improbable.

 

[Peacemaker]

I think it's pretty clear, this Rassilon is "the" Rassilon. His actions seem to fit what we learn in The Five Doctors, IMO. We learn then that he found a way to cheat death, and that there were rumors and legends about his cruelty. I think The End of Time shows that these were true, and it adds a dimension to the Time War as well, in that the Time Lords' final sanction comes across, at least to me, as an extension of Rassilon's desire to cheat death. He isn't really concerned about Time Lord society as much as he is about cheating death itself both personally and corporately with his people.

There's a sense in which he parallels the Master on Utopia and Lucy when the Master took her there. They were both at the end of the universe. Lucy went nuts. Think how that might affect a society of time travelers. Sure, they could master time, but, eventually, the universe would have to end, and with that, they would as well. So, their great discovery becomes a curse, not a blessing. Not even they could escape the end of all things, unless they could, as Rassilon said, find a way to transcend the power of creation itself. Rassilon probably realized that early on, and he set a plan into motion to do just that. Maybe he foresaw the Time War itself, allowed himself to be put away in The Death Zone until the time was right, knowing he would be resurrected and could complete his plan.