Were Neelix and Kes sexual?

[Gov Kodos]

Good points... and...

I thought the character of Kes and the Ocampa in general would have a hard time developing a civilization.

Reminds me, how do they even survive? If they can only have one kid, and half are male, the race couldn't exist. Assuming the men could have babies it still would mean the race couldn't grow.

Odd plot hole there.

Gov Kodos, I too thought Kes' Ascension was normal for the Ocampans, and the Caretaker's interference was preventing it on Ocampa. I was actually surprised by Fury, though, I figured the Humanoid life of the Ocampa was merely their childhood, and they would live eternally in their ascended state.

I assumed they were just so domesticated by the caretaker they forgot/didn't bother anymore. Rather than preventing, per se.

The 9 year life span doesn't seem to jibe at all with having a civilization of any great technical achievement. That's why I imagined with Kes's later ascension, that the shortened lifespan was a development of that state. First came rapid physical maturation, followed by mental powers accelerating and transcending the physical shell. The Caretaker was keeping the race in a state of arrested development. That then begs the question of why ascended Ocampans wouldn't tell the Caretaker to bugger off, though. (Other than the ascension business wasn't thought of at the start of the series, of course.) If we take that arrested development to be so, Janeway's destroying the Array does allow the Ocampans to continue in their natural development. Something like Kirk's argument for destroying Val.

 

[Guy Gardener]

First off. They could be dying off. These breeding patterns could be part of how the Nacene accidentally screwed over the Ocampa.

Second, we don't know the division of male and female births. The birth ratio could be 9 to one in favour of the females. Which would indicate some interesting limitations to monogomy and marriage duration. Note that Kes says that her father died just before her first birthday, but we know that her mother is fertile once in her life between the age of 3 and 4... So do 8 year olds usually marry 3 year olds? It would explain her attraction to Neelix as normal for her people. It also suggests that either the women want their "husbands" dead that they only mate with with blokes on their last breath, or it might mean once that the boys become fertile, they keep finding fertile females in succession and raising their child which takes about a year in total each. So one guy can have 8 wives, and 8 children and every child raised completley and healthily to an adult status.

Third, we don't know that an Ocamp/Ocampa pairing producing generally just one child. Human/Ocampa seems to make one baby, but if an Ocampa/Ocampa coupling produces generally triplets, quadruplets, or more, then they really don't have any problem at all.

Fourth, the event with the nacene ocurred 1000 years ago. That means that the Ocampa as we know them, those whose ancestors were bundled into the ark, that city, when one supposes that the environmental catastrope that wrecked the surface exterminating the billions beyond the Nacenes capacity to save left above... After a thousand years under the Caretakers protection, which is what? 3 thousand generations? The Ocampa do not need room to breath, which means that their numbers are not growing. Are they controlling their own growth? Is the Caretaker controlling thier growth? Or are they uncontrollably dying out? It's possible that a thousand years ago, that the Caretaker saved dozens to hundreds of cities, and now the Ocampa can all fit into one city.

 

[Tiberius]

when in truth if he has a daughter, kim and Paris will be going rock paper scissors for first banging rights there abouts her first birthday.
.

that was worth the mental image of kes and neelix doing it.

I invoke Rule 34.

And after searching the website of the same name, I found some really strange stuff about Neelix. Apparently, he has a spiked penis...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Of course he does.

Talaxian ladies have star shaped vaginas.

It would be ridiculous if he didn't have a spikey John Thomas.

 

[Gov Kodos]

So does this work in a righty-tighty, lefty-Lucy sort of way? Do Talaxians worry about stripping screws?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

In the Alpha quadrant everything will go in the opposite direction.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're thinking one or both of this diminutive coupling couple are cartwheeling during intercourse?

Everything Neelix learnt about Sex... Is it possible he's a marsupial? Everything Neelix learnt about sex is wrong, because if his girlfriend is pushing babies out from between her shoulder blades, then that's most probably where she's expecting him to insert his winkle.

Just a thought.

But sex aides/toys/stuff usually imitate the act, or help the act progress as expected.

Now just because Glue only pumps out of her hands during Elogium, it wouldn't be unexpected of a society of social fornicators who breed out of season to want to imitate the seasons they're not in, in so that during the course of regular sex that Kes would want to adhere herself to her sex opponent with some sort of artificial airfix bonding agent.

Because if her feet and tongue are not swelling, and her she can't stick herself to... Good lord!

That Hedgehog has far too much body hair to date that woman if this is what she is into!

 

[Gov Kodos]

Sex and free bikini wax?

 

[Lynx]

Our first sight of Kes was as of a kazon slave girl with a black eye, our second was of Nelix's mistress he was kissing on a transporter pad calling sweetie with the utmost concern for her so much that he started a war between the Federation and the Kason Oogla by LYING to Janeway.

The dark side of starwars fanlore says that Jabba raped Leia in Jedi, and she'd only been a slave girl for a few hours. Kes had been a slave girl for months and the black eye proved nothing else more than that they beat her until she did what she was told.

I saw a woman who was broken and then saved.

So maybe she's hopelessly emotionally indebted to the man that saved her, but after being treated like a toy in the dark cold nights by a herd of kazon miners, he'd know that he had to stand back and wait for her to repair at her own pace as slowly as necessary, which meant no nookie, perhaps forever, but then, he loved her, so it didn't matter.

Oh.

Kodos, McCoy was 137 in Encounter at Farpoint. The average human life span might be easily double 70 years.

Guy's comments are as always very straightforward but I do see many points in them.

We don't know if Kes was sexually abused by the Kazon (according to Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways" she wasn't but Taylor do have a tendency to sugar-coat everything in her stories). We also don't know if sexual abuse is an universal phenomenon even in the 24th century Delta Quadrant or if it's just a 20th-21th century Earth phenomenon.

What we do know was that Kes was beaten and ill-treated by the Kazon and that Neelix rescued her. As for the time Kes was prisoner, I assume that it was more like weeks than months.

Anyway, Neelix saved Kes because he felt sorry for her and was attracted to her and all that made him lie to Janeway and start a war between the Federation and the Kazon-Ogla.

Kes obviously felt gratitude to Neelix and worshipped him, just like a teenage girl can do in a similar situation. She obviously loved him too. Later on when she had started to live her own new life on Voyager she probably started to get tired of his supervision and jealous tantrums but that's another story.

If they had sex or not is an open question. I guess that Guy is right in his comments about Neelix standing back and waiting for her to repair at her own pace as slowly as necessary. That would explain the separate quarters, or maybe that was a part of some Starship policy: "No sharing of quarters on our ships. If you have sex, do it discreet."

Once again, the sexual habits of the species in the Delta Quadrant might differ from those on Earth. As we could see in "Elogium", they were ready to go for it to conceive a child. If they had sex later on, who knows? Maybe, but it looks like their relationship became more complicated in season 2 and onwards until it broke up in season 3.

Note that in the Voyager books "The Murdered Sun" and "Cybersong", Kes and neelix do share the same quarters. However, that must be regarded as a continuity error. The books were published during season 1 and the beginning of season 2 and the authors might have been unaware of them having different quarters at the time they started writing the stories.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Our first sight of Kes was as of a kazon slave girl with a black eye, our second was of Nelix's mistress he was kissing on a transporter pad calling sweetie with the utmost concern for her so much that he started a war between the Federation and the Kason Oogla by LYING to Janeway.

The dark side of starwars fanlore says that Jabba raped Leia in Jedi, and she'd only been a slave girl for a few hours. Kes had been a slave girl for months and the black eye proved nothing else more than that they beat her until she did what she was told.

I saw a woman who was broken and then saved.

So maybe she's hopelessly emotionally indebted to the man that saved her, but after being treated like a toy in the dark cold nights by a herd of kazon miners, he'd know that he had to stand back and wait for her to repair at her own pace as slowly as necessary, which meant no nookie, perhaps forever, but then, he loved her, so it didn't matter.

Oh.

Kodos, McCoy was 137 in Encounter at Farpoint. The average human life span might be easily double 70 years.

Guy's comments are as always very straightforward but I do see many points in them.

We don't know if Kes was sexually abused by the Kazon (according to Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways" she wasn't but Taylor do have a tendency to sugar-coat everything in her stories). We also don't know if sexual abuse is an universal phenomenon even in the 24th century Delta Quadrant or if it's just a 20th-21th century Earth phenomenon.

I like to think they had some taboo about the Ocampa which prevented her from being raped.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Our first sight of Kes was as of a kazon slave girl with a black eye, our second was of Nelix's mistress he was kissing on a transporter pad calling sweetie with the utmost concern for her so much that he started a war between the Federation and the Kason Oogla by LYING to Janeway.

The dark side of starwars fanlore says that Jabba raped Leia in Jedi, and she'd only been a slave girl for a few hours. Kes had been a slave girl for months and the black eye proved nothing else more than that they beat her until she did what she was told.

I saw a woman who was broken and then saved.

So maybe she's hopelessly emotionally indebted to the man that saved her, but after being treated like a toy in the dark cold nights by a herd of kazon miners, he'd know that he had to stand back and wait for her to repair at her own pace as slowly as necessary, which meant no nookie, perhaps forever, but then, he loved her, so it didn't matter.

Oh.

Kodos, McCoy was 137 in Encounter at Farpoint. The average human life span might be easily double 70 years.

Guy's comments are as always very straightforward but I do see many points in them.

We don't know if Kes was sexually abused by the Kazon (according to Jeri Taylor's book "Pathways" she wasn't but Taylor do have a tendency to sugar-coat everything in her stories). We also don't know if sexual abuse is an universal phenomenon even in the 24th century Delta Quadrant or if it's just a 20th-21th century Earth phenomenon.

I like to think they had some taboo about the Ocampa which prevented her from being raped.

Slave holders in the US had that kind of taboo in theory, but somehow, it just didn't work that way in practice. I'm happy they didn't do that openly since I don't find Trek's handling of sexual themes, much less sexual abuse and its aftermath, sophisticated enough to tackle the topic. The Farscape writers and producers, sure, but not Trek.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sorry to flog a dead horse.

If they did have unconsensual sex with Kes it wouldn't have been rape because the kazon did not see Kes as a person.

Ocampans are not people because their lifespan is a joke.

Nonkazons are not people because they are weak.

Women are not people because they are even weaker.

So by those Kazon standards, unconsensual sex with Kes at worst would be bestiality.

And that's the same space-sheep interfering taboo that would stop them from keeping warm with kes, the same that stops them keeping warm at night with other soulless livestock.

Oddly enough the only/single possible avenue for "legally defined" rape in the kazon culture is (male) homosexual nonconsensual sex.

And why make a rule or a law against (male) homosexual rape unless it happens a lot?

Were the Kazon primarily Homosexual?

They might need babies for perpetuation, but the funhouse is more scary than fun.

Besides their universal devaluation of women would ideally create a stacked deck atmosphere where (male) homosexuality seems like a much more sensible release of passion to each generation making their mind up, if as a society that's what they actually feel are the forces which will drive them to total victory over the rest of the entire universe.

...

As for the duration of kes' slavery. Story has it that she broke through to the surface shortly after her first birthday, it's a fair assumption that she could have survived with the food/water she took with her for perhaps a week, certainly less, but as soon as she ran out of whatever she carrying on her back, it was just a question of hours until she would die without Kazon assistance.

Kes had her second birthday in the second season (it was suppose to be a first season episode but the universe got difficult.) episode Twisted.

One year minus her time on Voyager up to the episode Twisted.

And that's how long she worked for the Kazon.

Months, not weeks.