Weird ways that children are treated in "TNG."

[MAGolding]

Sometimes I think the nudity hang up is more of an American thing.
There are nude beaches in a lot of countries. Also nude parks in Germany.
Everyone in those places seems pretty relaxed about it.

Relaxed until they start getting skin cancer all over their bodies in a few decades. I personally not only have a strong nudity hang up but also a strong cover up when going outside hangup because of my distaste for sunlight.

Jamie Finney was a child? I mean, I guess technically Kirk had a dad and a mum, too, but the underage part of "being a child" seemed to be missing in the "Court Martial" case.

The upper limit to her age comes from the day Ben Finney first came to appreciate Jim Kirk enough to name his daughter after the man, and that could be even before Jim's Academy years for all we know (FWIW, Ben appears quite a bit older than Jim).

The lower limit... Well, when was Alice Rawlings born?

Timo Saloniemi

The writers of this synopsis thinks that Jame is about 13:

http://warpspeedtononsense.blogspot.com/2013/10/season-1-episode-15-court-martial.html

I think that we can do a little bit better than supposing Jame was the same age - whatever it was - as Alice Rawlings. It is quite possible that the character was supposed to be a different age from the actor.

STONE: Let us begin with your relationship with Commander Finney. You knew him for a long time, didn't you?
KIRK: Yes. He was an instructor at the Academy when I was a midshipman, but that didn't stand in the way of our beginning a close friendship. His daughter Jamie, who was here last night, was named after me.

This makes it possible that Finney knew Kirk before Kirk entered the academy. Maybe their families were friends, maybe Finney was impressed by Kirk's possible heroism at Tarsus IV. But it sounds like they became friends, and Jame was named, after Kirk entered the Academy.

STONE: It's common knowledge that something happened to your friendship.
KIRK: It's no secret. We were assigned to the same ship some years later.

SHAW: With reference to Records Officer Finney, was there in his service record a reported disciplinary action for failure to close a circuit?
ENSIGN: Yes, ma'am.
SHAW: Was the charge in that instance based upon a log entry by the officer who relieved him?
ENSIGN: Yes, ma'am.
SHAW: And who was that officer?
ENSIGN: Ensign James T. Kirk.

In another first season episode, "Shore Leave", Kirk meets Finnegan, an Academy upperclassman who tormented Kirk in Kirk's first (plebe) year at the Academy.

FINNEGAN: I never answer questions from plebes, Jimmy boy.
KIRK: I'm not a plebe. This is today, fifteen years later. What are you doing here?

So Kirk was a plebe in his first year at the Academy about 15.00 to 16.00 years before "Shore Leave". That means that Kirk should have graduated and become an ensign about 12.0 to 13.0 years before "Shore Leave".

In the second season episode "Obsession" Kirk was a lieutenant 11 years before, and in another second season episode "A Private Little War" Kirk was a lieutenant 13 years earlier. If the second season episodes are about a year after "Court Martial" Kirk was a lieutenant about 10 and 12 years before "Court Martial".

Thus it seems rather probable that Jame Finney was about 12 to 16 in "Court Martial" and was not a adult young women like Lenore Karidian, for example.

Herrick said:

I think putting kids on a Star Ship that regularly goes into life threatening situations is much more....weird or inappropriate than getting into a mud bath with an old lady and one's dad.

Sakonna said:

The weirdest detail is specifically that the kids are left ON THE ENTERPRISE, a ship which every week is narrowly escaping death and destruction. When Wesley was left behind by Beverly for season 2, at least he had his acting ensign thing already going to justify it.

It is my theory that most TNG episodes happen in their own separate alternate universes from other episodes, except for the episodes that are part of story arcs. The hundreds of episodes were selected by the producers from among the most exciting events in each of billions of alternate universes. Thus the only kids likely to be endangered multiple times were Wesley, Alexander, and Molly O'Brien.

 

[Jaster]

I know it’s the wrong forum, but right era - what were Annika Hansen’s parents thinking putting their daughter in a years long research mission?

In addition to the potential danger in searching out the Borg, the social and environmental isolation can’t be a good thing for a child.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

First example is "Cost of Living." You have a young kid sharing a mud bath with both his dad,his counselor and her mom? It doesn't help that both Troi's look like they are not wearing a top to their bathing suits. Plus this kid friendly place has a half naked alien in it and i'm not even sure what we are supose to take away from the fact that Laxania Troi goes naked at her wedding while Alexander is in the room.

Sharing a bath with adults is normal in many cultures. In Japan for example it's normal for children to go to the onsen (hot spring bath) with adults. Loads of onsen are used both by men and women together, kids and adults. There's nothing sexual in that practice, that's just a bath. I think the nudity taboo is mostly an American cultural taboo.
I guess that taboo wouldn't be strong anymore in ST's 24th century.

 

[matthunter]

I know it’s the wrong forum, but right era - what were Annika Hansen’s parents thinking putting their daughter in a years long research mission?

In addition to the potential danger in searching out the Borg, the social and environmental isolation can’t be a good thing for a child.

I think the dialogue from the other characters indicates you aren't alone in thinking this, even disregarding what happened with the Borg. They're presented as focused on their work to the exclusion of rationality - one wonders that they found time or inclination to have a child in the first place.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Regarding the nudity, it's implied that cultural taboos around sex and nudity are more relaxed in the 24th century than today. Also, children have been inundated with the need to respect all kinds of different cultures, and children on starships have been constantly surrounded by many many very different species, so they're probably used to different cultural attitudes toward nudity.

 

[Graham]

You have a young kid sharing a mud bath with both his dad,his counselor and her mom? It doesn't help that both Troi's look like they are not wearing a top to their bathing suits.

I thought it was pretty obvious that all four of them were supposed to be naked in there.

Plus this kid friendly place has a half naked alien in it and i'm not even sure what we are supose to take away from the fact that Laxania Troi goes naked at her wedding while Alexander is in the room. I know Betazoids have different customs especially with nudity at their wedding but I wonder how that plays out with their children or how it plays out with other cultures in the Federation.

Don't really see the big deal to this. Nudity customs and taboos vary greatly on Earth right now, and have changed hugely over time - as but one example, when I was a kid (40 years ago) it wasn't at all unusual to see very young children naked at the beach. Nobody thought anything of it. Nor did anyone blink if you took pictures of them, and this in the days when you had to send film in to be processed by other people.

And even now there are plenty of beaches where women go topless, for instance. Nobody minds taking kids to them.

Seeing naked people does nothing to harm children, unless you instil into them that it is wrong and they should feel harmed by it.

I find it entirely reasonable that Betazoids are a lot more loose about nudity than present day westerners are.

As for other cultures... Humans at least seem to be a little mixed on the subject. Remember Deanna's fiance Wyatt? His parents were loathe to go naked at the wedding, but wound up compromising on the issue. Picard and other Starfleet types seem to take it for granted that they will go naked at Deanna's Betazoid wedding to Will in Nemesis. That seems equitable, since the whole point of having two ceremonies was for each to engage in the culture of the other - and she was willing to go clothed to her wedding on Earth, after all.

And I also find that attitude sensible from Starfleet officers, since Starfleet's general rule is that you follow local laws and customs when on another planet.

Then in "The Bonding" and "Hero Worship" you have 2 young children who have lost both of their parents yet instead having a legal guardian to watch over them they get their own quarters?

Yeah, that one is a little weird. Gene had a thing about how in the future death was regarded as a natural part of life, and so nobody ever grieved for anybody who died. Writers have said that they found that very difficult to write around sometimes, and those were examples given.

"Brothers" isn't so bad for the most part but the idea that 2 parents would leave their children behind to go on a sabatical seems very strange. Isn't that like a Wal Mart employee taking off for a month go to over to Europe and asking Wal Mart if they will watch over his/her kids while he/her is gone?

Beverley did much the same thing with Wesley.

I think a lot of this comes from the attitude of protection. Most taboos that exist around children are there because of perceived danger - the reason you never see young kids naked on beaches any more is the fear of pedophiles.

In a (claimed) utopian culture such as Earth is supposed to have, such things would not be a consideration. Why would you have to worry about letting your kids out unattended, or walking around naked, if there is literally zero danger from predatory adult criminals? In such a society we may well expect adults to have an attitude towards the safety of children that would seem, to our eyes, to be horribly casual. Likewise with parenting; Beverly just seemed to take it for granted that everyone would pitch in and help raise Wesley, and that he would be well cared for.

Tuvok actually says this to Ensign Wildman in a Voyager episode about Naomi. "My youngest child has been without a father for four years. Yet I am certain of her well being; that I conveyed my values to her before leaving. And I have confidence in the integrity of those around her. You have been an exemplary mother to Naomi, and she is in the hands of people you trust. She will survive, and prosper, no matter what becomes of us."

There's an old saying, "it takes a village to raise a child". Earthers seem to take that very literally, and when necessary they seem more than willing to just let the village raise the child for them.

Of course we often see kids on Starships where there ARE dangers - the ship might blow up, nasty aliens on board, etc. But these are regarded by their society as exceptional and unusual circumstances, not the norm. (Though they are the norm in the context of the show, lol).

 

[Horta]

Have you ever noticed how they treated kids sometimes never felt really right? First example is "Cost of Living." You have a young kid sharing a mud bath with both his dad,his counselor and her mom? It doesn't help that both Troi's look like they are not wearing a top to their bathing suits. Plus this kid friendly place has a half naked alien in it and i'm not even sure what we are supose to take away from the fact that Laxania Troi goes naked at her wedding while Alexander is in the room. I know Betazoids have different customs especially with nudity at their wedding but I wonder how that plays out with their children or how it plays out with other cultures in the Federation.
Then in "The Bonding" and "Hero Worship" you have 2 young children who have lost both of their parents yet instead having a legal guardian to watch over them they get their own quarters?
In "Rascals" when Picard and the other kid shrunk adults choose to retake the ship they actually let Alexander help in the mission? You just recuited a kid for a dangerous mission which seems very iffy to say the least.
"Brothers" isn't so bad for the most part but the idea that 2 parents would leave their children behind to go on a sabatical seems very strange. Isn't that like a Wal Mart employee taking off for a month go to over to Europe and asking Wal Mart if they will watch over his/her kids while he/her is gone?

Jason

I think overall, the idea in Star Trek is that in the future kids are treated as people rather than possessions and therefore they are given, and learn to handle more responsibility. I have traveled to parts of the world where the young children have a lot of responsibility and as a result, they are much more mature than American children. (This is not to knock our kids, it's just how they are brought up).

Also, I think Gene envisioned a future where people did not see the human body as shameful. Really, if you think about it, what is so wrong with a kid sitting in mudd with adults and laughing?

As far as the kids staying in their own quarters, I think this is much like a child having their own bedroom. The kids were old enough to use the replicator and dress themselves, and no doubt they were being counseled and supervised and had other structured activities. Their quarters was just their bedroom. Of course, long term I am sure they would be placed with another family, and I think this was discussed. If the kids had been 3 years old, I'm sure they would have been placed with adults.

As far as letting letting Alexander help out, nothing about this seems strange. In this case, the kids were the best crew members to help out. Just as an aside, when I was a child, my parents let me help with important tasks, and gave me a lot of independence, and I had no problem staying alive, lol.

As far as parents going on sabbatical...this is not unheard of in 2017, and probably would still occur in the future. In our time, parents leave children frequently to serve in the military. I am also aware of people who have left home for a period of time for an extraordinary career opportunity. While this is not common, it is not unheard of.

So to answer you question, personally, I don't think Star Trek treats children weirdly, I think they envisioned a future where the kids are fairly mature...maybe Star Fleet also helped prepare families for this responsibility. The kids seem to be cared for, but are given a lot of respect and responsibility.

 

[Paul Weaver]

Who takes a shower in their clothes?

One infected with PSI2000?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Starfleet-run/influenced schools might even offer what amounts to a Starfleet prep program with placements for older students. Chronological age isn't the factor; maturity and physical ability (lack of which can be compensated for) is.

 

[Leviathan]

...ah, I was mistaken. Thought this thread was about Braga.

 

[marlboro]

There is really no way to rationalize parents putting their children on board a ship that faces so many deadly anomalies, plagues, mad demi-gods, bizarre monsters, and an unending stream of hostile alien species. You live in a (supposedly) Utopian society and you decide to bring your kids into outer space where they face destruction on a daily basis? It's tough when you have to fight the Borg and you can't find a babysitter.

Of course, Roddenberry probably thought humanity had evolved beyond caring about their offspring by this point. If humans had evolved past fearing death (s1 The Neutral Zone) then why not, right?

 

[Tribble puncher]

Have you ever noticed how they treated kids sometimes never felt really right? First example is "Cost of Living." You have a young kid sharing a mud bath with both his dad,his counselor and her mom? It doesn't help that both Troi's look like they are not wearing a top to their bathing suits. Plus this kid friendly place has a half naked alien in it and i'm not even sure what we are supose to take away from the fact that Laxania Troi goes naked at her wedding while Alexander is in the room. I know Betazoids have different customs especially with nudity at their wedding but I wonder how that plays out with their children or how it plays out with other cultures in the Federation.
Then in "The Bonding" and "Hero Worship" you have 2 young children who have lost both of their parents yet instead having a legal guardian to watch over them they get their own quarters?
In "Rascals" when Picard and the other kid shrunk adults choose to retake the ship they actually let Alexander help in the mission? You just recuited a kid for a dangerous mission which seems very iffy to say the least.
"Brothers" isn't so bad for the most part but the idea that 2 parents would leave their children behind to go on a sabatical seems very strange. Isn't that like a Wal Mart employee taking off for a month go to over to Europe and asking Wal Mart if they will watch over his/her kids while he/her is gone?

Jason

From what I understand, Roddenberry was very much a "free love" sort of guy, I wonder if he would have had free reign with TNG, if you wouldn't have seen naked people running all over the ship and orgies everywhere. As far as the kids, now I logically don't see how you could get away with families and kids on Starfleet vessels, but when TNG first aired, as a kid, I thought it was cool because I was able to inject myself there, it made it easy to visualize myself living on the Enterprise, which, as a socially awkward dorky kid in the late 80's, was quite a nice weekly escape. I suspect that's why it was done, to get kids into the show.

 

[Paul Weaver]

The Mayflower had children on. The Oregon Trail took children along.

 

[marlboro]

The Mayflower had children on.

If the Atlantic ocean was full of Borg they would have kept their asses and their weird buckled hats back in England.

There is a big difference between being a refugee or a colonist and saying "Hey I've got a job as Redshirt #47 on the Enterprise - pack up the kids!"

 

[Paul Weaver]

The Atlantic was full of pirates and privateers - and the mayflower was armed. The west was full of natives hence the pioneers were armed. It was dangerous. In ww2 144 passenger ships were lost thanks to German uboats, many carrying children.

In season 1 there was no Borg. The only threat was from the cardassians, a small local war that had burnt itself out by then. The Saratoga could well have been a local ship pottering around the core federation worlds. The Britain was an exploration ship. The enterprise was rare in having children on board - Picard hadn't come across it before. Many view starfleet as a military, but from 20th century eyes the enterprise was a cruise ship. After the Borg, dominion (and the loss of the odyssey), and the romulans reemerging, starfleet priorities changed, and these large family cruise liners with science packages went out of style, and military ships like the E came back.

The original idea behind the galaxy class ships was they were floating cities in space out to explore the unknown in a peaceful time, armed to defend against raiders and pirates, much the like Oregon trail, but rather than having a static colony at risk at the end of a dangerous journey, it was a moving colony, safer than a colony like Deneva - able to run and able to fight.

Families live in military bases, clearly high value targets. Families settled the America despite the risks. Families cruised the oceans during ww2. Why wouldn't families live in a floating city in the 24th century?

Red shirts weren't on the ship for a pay check, they could just move to earth or mars if they wanted that. they wanted to explore the unknown, to better themselves and the species, and not miss out on a family while Doing that.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I could see going if you were Redshirt #47. You'd need it on your resume. Kids be damned!
But if you were just Bliueshirt #47, not so much. Gotta wait till you can put them in boarding school on some boring planet like Earth.

 

[Leviathan]

The Mayflower had children on. The Oregon Trail took children along.

...the Donner party.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Interesting discussion. With regard to nudity in TNG, I suspect the era had a lot to do with the attitudes - mid-eighties to mid-nineties US media was quite permissive and relaxed in terms of bare skin. I can well imagine people looking back in a couple of decades, as we do at TNG's time, wondering at how tolerant we were of violence, especially involving children.

Also, the particular sensibilities of a given episode's writer would have played into things, for example that of Cost of Living being more comfortable with bare skin than the scribe behind, say, Deja Q ("Primitive human taboos"). Overall, I got the impression that 24th century humanity took context and intent much more into account than we seem to.

 

[Galileo7]

Interesting discussion. With regard to nudity in TNG....
Also, the particular sensibilities of a given episode's writer would have played into things, for example that of Cost of Living being more comfortable with bare skin ...

Maybe the writer was as a child with their family or is a naturist/nudist.