Ways that SNW actually improved TOS

[Nerys Myk]

The new shows have big canon issues like STD Klingons

You won't see them on SNW (outside of a clip) . "Muted" out of existence.

the Spock/Chapel romance

Good backstory for what we see in TOS

the gorn completely changed and how starfleet knows much more about them than they did in TOS,

Minor change. They're still sneaky Lizard Men who shoot first and don't bother with questions,

Khans birth timelime

Irrelevant to the story told in "Space Seed". It could change twenty more times and not impact the story.

Like I said, let me know when they change something major.

 

[HotRod]

After Section 31 not even looking like the 25th century

Because it was the early 24th century. As shit as the film was, there was nothing that really stood out as being out of place for its era.

 

[Farscape One]

Because it was the early 24th century. As shit as the film was, there was nothing that really stood out as being out of place for its era.

I would call the

Spoiler: SECTION 31

out of phase fighting

to be out of place for the early 24th century.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I would call the

Spoiler: SECTION 31

out of phase fighting

to be out of place for the early 24th century.

Have we seen that in Star Trek before? If not, where's the problem?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Oh, and why are we talking about dumb shit SEC31 did in a thread about SNW. Stick to dumb shit SNW does.

And when it comes to aesthetics, SNW clearly knows it's in the 23rd Century. A lot of mid (23rd) century modern.

 

[Farscape One]

Have we seen that in Star Trek before? If not, where's the problem?

We have seen people

Spoiler

out of phase people before, specifically in TNG's "The Next Phase". But that is over 40 years AFTER this movie, and that was the result of a transporter accident. (And for the Romulan, whatever accident happened on his ship.) Even the phasing cloak of the Pegasus happened about 35 years after SECTION 31, and it was treated as quite a breakthrough. The devices Georgiou and the other guy were using seemed to be fairly commonplace, based on how she happened to have one on hand to use for the meeting. That definitely is out of step, time wise, with the movie.

 

[Christopher]

I would call the

Spoiler: SECTION 31

out of phase fighting

to be out of place for the early 24th century.

It's a standard trope of spy fiction that the spies have top-secret technology well beyond what's available to the general public at the time. Look at The Wild, Wild West's steampunk gadgets (decades before the word "steampunk" was coined), or Maxwell Smart's android colleague Hymie the Robot, or James Bond's invisible car, or Ethan Hunt's amazingly lifelike masks and voice-altering devices.

 

[HotRod]

We have seen people

Spoiler

out of phase people before, specifically in TNG's "The Next Phase". But that is over 40 years AFTER this movie, and that was the result of a transporter accident. (And for the Romulan, whatever accident happened on his ship.) Even the phasing cloak of the Pegasus happened about 35 years after SECTION 31, and it was treated as quite a breakthrough. The devices Georgiou and the other guy were using seemed to be fairly commonplace, based on how she happened to have one on hand to use for the meeting. That definitely is out of step, time wise, with the movie.

Spoiler

Meh, I still consider that pretty minor. For all we know, it's a Terran Empire Technology that she just happened to be in possession of when she crossed over. That, or it could be some alien tech she picked up outside Federation space.

 

[Farscape One]

It's a standard trope of spy fiction that the spies have top-secret technology well beyond what's available to the general public at the time. Look at The Wild, Wild West's steampunk gadgets (decades before the word "steampunk" was coined), or Maxwell Smart's android colleague Hymie the Robot, or James Bond's invisible car, or Ethan Hunt's amazingly lifelike masks and voice-altering devices.

Yes, it is. Technology or equipment not available to the general public for a few years, sure. Even a decade. 2 decades is stretching credibility, but okay, maybe. We're talking about something nearly half a century, and still not showing as an available item by the beginning of the 25th century. That's a little hard to swallow.

Spoiler

Meh, I still consider that pretty minor. For all we know, it's a Terran Empire Technology that she just happened to be in possession of when she crossed over. That, or it could be some alien tech she picked up outside Federation space.

Spoiler

I don't buy that Emperor Georgiou was able to hide that on her when she was brought over. Plus, we never saw her use it before now, even when it would have been of great use for her. (Plus, that would mean the personal phasing device came from the 2250s... more than century before the Pegasus incident or what happened in "The Next Phase", making it feel even MORE out of step.)

As for alien tech, that is possible. But there would be at least a hint of that as something being around decades later. At the very least, one of the other powers like Cardassia or Romulus would have agents using this device.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, it is. Technology or equipment not available to the general public for a few years, sure. Even a decade. 2 decades is stretching credibility, but okay, maybe. We're talking about something nearly half a century, and still not showing as an available item by the beginning of the 25th century. That's a little hard to swallow.

Not in an interstellar setting. There's no single level of technology that everyone in the galaxy is at simultaneously, since some civilizations are centuries or millennia older than others. I mean, heck, think of all the ancient, super-advanced civilizations in TOS, like the Talosians or the Metrons or the Providers or Sargon's people. A lot of them died out and left ruins behind. An industrious government or corporation could salvage highly advanced technologies from the ruins of lost civilizations. If anything, it's implausible that the Federation doesn't do that. Like, why didn't they trade with the Providers for their interstellar transporter technology, or reverse-engineer it from the Kalandan ruins? (The Vomnin Confederacy in my Trek novels bases their civilization largely on salvaged alien ruins; I was somewhat inspired by how the Earth military collects and adapts alien technology in the Stargate franchise.)

Besides, we're talking about spy-fi. Credibility is beside the point. James Bond had an invisible car 22 years ago. Maxwell Smart had a sentient android colleague in the 1960s. The standard conceit is that the sooper-seekrit government agencies have access to technologies generations ahead of the public, but keeps them secret because the public isn't "ready" for them yet. It's absurd, but so is most stuff in spy-fi and secret-conspiracy stories.

 

[Farscape One]

Not in an interstellar setting. There's no single level of technology that everyone in the galaxy is at simultaneously, since some civilizations are centuries or millennia older than others. I mean, heck, think of all the ancient, super-advanced civilizations in TOS, like the Talosians or the Metrons or the Providers or Sargon's people. A lot of them died out and left ruins behind. An industrious government or corporation could salvage highly advanced technologies from the ruins of lost civilizations. If anything, it's implausible that the Federation doesn't do that. Like, why didn't they trade with the Providers for their interstellar transporter technology, or reverse-engineer it from the Kalandan ruins? (The Vomnin Confederacy in my Trek novels bases their civilization largely on salvaged alien ruins; I was somewhat inspired by how the Earth military collects and adapts alien technology in the Stargate franchise.)

Besides, we're talking about spy-fi. Credibility is beside the point. James Bond had an invisible car 22 years ago. Maxwell Smart had a sentient android colleague in the 1960s. The standard conceit is that the sooper-seekrit government agencies have access to technologies generations ahead of the public, but keeps them secret because the public isn't "ready" for them yet. It's absurd, but so is most stuff in spy-fi and secret-conspiracy stories.

I never said everyone was supposed to have the same level of technology. But something like that device should have been around by TNG's era. It's one thing to reverse engineer something like in "THAT WHICH SURVIVES" or "THE GAMESTERS OF TRISKELION"... doing that can and will take time. But what was used in SECTION 31 should at least be used or more well known by TNG's time.

And besides... the Enterprise-D and all our other hero ships are hardly the 'general public'. They would have access and knowledge and technology that the ordinary person wouldn't have, anyway. Which is why when I say half a century earlier when SECTION 31 takes place, what was used was a bit hard to believe.



I'm going to get back to the topic, which is SNW. Apologies for veering off course with the SECTION 31 trip.

 

[Nerys Myk]

. But what was used in SECTION 31 should at least be used or more well known by TNG's time.

Why? Not mentioned is not the same as can’t exist.

 

[Christopher]

I never said everyone was supposed to have the same level of technology. But something like that device should have been around by TNG's era.

As I said, spy-fi suspends such logical rules. Spies always have technology as advanced as the story needs them to have, and it's presumed that it won't get out to the public because it's Top Secret. It's not supposed to make sense, it's just an accepted trope of the genre.

Besides, Trek is full of technologies that should have been seen again but weren't. The first season of DS9 introduced quick-cloning in "A Man Alone" and consciousness transfer in "The Passenger." Combine the two and you've got immortality. But neither tech was ever seen again, because it would've been too revolutionary. There's no in-story logic to why those technologies vanished; it just wasn't narratively desirable to use them again.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Let's go to the transcripts

Spoiler: SEC31 stuff

I assume the canon objection stems from TNG. But as we see here, there is a device called a "molecular phase inverter." Geordi seems to have at least a passing familiarity with it. So it's not new, though combining it with a cloaking device is.

TNG "The Next Phase"
(Geordi sticks his head inside a piece of equipment)
LAFORGE: I've never seen anything like this. There's something in here that looks like a molecular phase inverter.
RO: What's that?
LAFORGE: It's supposed to change the structure of matter so it can pass through normal matter and energy. Hang on a second. A few years back, we got intelligence reports that the Klingons were working on trying to combine a phase inverter and a cloaking device. In theory, they believed that a phased ship could hide anywhere, even inside a planet, and that conventional weapons would be useless against it.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and surmise that a "molecular phase inverter" might be a key component in things like phasers, transporters and perhaps even warp drive. So to my mind there's nothing violated.

 

[Christopher]

Let's go to the transcripts

Spoiler: SEC31 stuff

I assume the canon objection stems from TNG. But as we see here, there is a device called a "molecular phase inverter." Geordi seems to have at least a passing familiarity with it. So it's not new, though combining it with a cloaking device is.

TNG "The Next Phase"
(Geordi sticks his head inside a piece of equipment)
LAFORGE: I've never seen anything like this. There's something in here that looks like a molecular phase inverter.
RO: What's that?
LAFORGE: It's supposed to change the structure of matter so it can pass through normal matter and energy. Hang on a second. A few years back, we got intelligence reports that the Klingons were working on trying to combine a phase inverter and a cloaking device. In theory, they believed that a phased ship could hide anywhere, even inside a planet, and that conventional weapons would be useless against it.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and surmise that a "molecular phase inverter" might be a key component in things like phasers, transporters and perhaps even warp drive. So to my mind there's nothing violated.

But Geordi says "it's supposed to" do that, implying it's a technology that's been theorized about but hasn't actually been achieved as far as he knows. Which is reconcilable with it being a technology that was achieved in secret a few decades earlier.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But Geordi says "it's supposed to" do that, implying it's a technology that's been theorized about but hasn't actually been achieved as far as he knows. Which is reconcilable with it being a technology that was achieved in secret a few decades earlier.

That a valid interpretation. Mine is he surprised to see it in that setting.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Honestly, given that the only times it's been seen is in shadowy parts of Starfleet (Section 31, the part of Starfleet Tactical/Intelligence that was behind the Pegasus Incident) it actually makes a lot of sense to me that confirmed versions of technology are largely unknown, even decades later.

 

[Farscape One]

As I said, spy-fi suspends such logical rules. Spies always have technology as advanced as the story needs them to have, and it's presumed that it won't get out to the public because it's Top Secret. It's not supposed to make sense, it's just an accepted trope of the genre.

Besides, Trek is full of technologies that should have been seen again but weren't. The first season of DS9 introduced quick-cloning in "A Man Alone" and consciousness transfer in "The Passenger." Combine the two and you've got immortality. But neither tech was ever seen again, because it would've been too revolutionary. There's no in-story logic to why those technologies vanished; it just wasn't narratively desirable to use them again.

We'll just agree to disagree, then.

As I said, I have moved on to go back to the topic of the thread, which is SNW.

 

[Christopher]

We'll just agree to disagree, then.

I'm not saying I think it's a good idea, just that it's typical of the genre the makers of the movie chose to embrace. I think the entire movie is a bad idea, so this one detail doesn't stand out for me as worse.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I would also argue that with time and multiverse travel possible, by accident or on purpose, all sorts of temporally/universally displaced advanced tech could wind up in the hands of intelligence services, technically before they were in fact invented in one's own time/universe.

(Maxwell Smart didn't have a real time machine, did he?)