Watching "In the Flesh" after a decade

[Anwar]

Removing them as a threat force does not require literally removing them from the Trekverse entirely. It also does not require any budget-gobbling space battles.

Tell that to the Dominion. It took 5 seasons to remove them as a threat, and they didn't even fully do that!

I have no problem with doing an 8472 ep that does ultimately dial them back as threats. But they didn't have to just WRECK them. That's my problem with "In the Flesh." One ep is all it takes to comepletely sap them of any punch. The ep didn't have to end on this "We're all friends now. It was just a misunderstanding. Never mind that we are a fundamentally different species from a fundamentally different type of space; we've reachd an accord. Here's a flower." What would have made more sense is for the ep to have made it clear that a full-scale 8472 INVASION is no longer imminent, but that doesn't have to mean that everything is hunky-dory. The 8472 could have decided to reign in their aggression toward our galaxy, but in sort of a "probationary" sense; they're not going fly in with guns blazing for the moment, but that doesn't mean they're completely satisfied that our galaxy still couldn't represent a threat to them later.

That's lazy and irresponsible leaving it hanging like that with the threat of future war still up in the air. Especially with such a powerful foe that they could turn the Trekverse into ashes if they wanted.

If a show introduces a threat, it's the show's responsibility to get rid of that threat. TNG was similarly irresponsible when it left the Borg around instead of responsibly just killing them all in BOBW. If VOY didn't end the threat of the 8472, it's irresponsible. DS9 at least ended things with the Dominion somewhat favorably with Odo trying to reform them (though they really should've done more to cripple them or lessen their power by the end).

 

[Saito S]

Removing them as a threat force does not require literally removing them from the Trekverse entirely. It also does not require any budget-gobbling space battles.

Tell that to the Dominion. It took 5 seasons to remove them as a threat, and they didn't even fully do that!

Uh... so? Just because threat A was stretched out over X length of time using method Y doesn't mean ALL threats must then follow a similar pattern. Just because the story of the Dominion involved a bunch of epic space battles doesn't mean that the story of any large, powerful Trek villain must then also require a bunch of epic space battles. And they stretched out the Dominion threat over five seasons because they wanted to. There was no outside force, no higher power that prevented them from wrapping the Dominion up quicker. Had the producers and writers WANTED the Dominion threat gone by, say, season 5, it would have been.
And: Yes, they did fully "do that." I am defining "remove the threat" as "this threat is no longer an immediate threat in the context of this show." At the end of DS9, the "Dominion threat" was gone. Was there a guarantee that they would never attack again? No. Were they crippled to the point of being unable to make war? No. But when the closing credits rolled for the last time, they had peace. Not EVERY problem introduced into a TV show (or movie, or book, etc) necessarily needs to be solved to the point of "This threat is GONE FOREVER. It can NEVER be a threat again." To expect them all to be wrapped up like that is unrealistic.

And the Dominion itself is a great example of what I wanted done with 8472: remove the immediate threat; i.e., make it so that it's clear to the viewer that there's not going to be an 8472 invasion TOMORROW, and that if Voyager were to come across any 8472 they wouldn't automatically have to defend themselves. Neither of these things preclude keeping the door open for future stories.

That's lazy and irresponsible leaving it hanging like that with the threat of future war still up in the air. Especially with such a powerful foe that they could turn the Trekverse into ashes if they wanted.

Uh... no, it's not "lazy and irresponsible." It's a choice. To COMPLETELY eliminate any major threat you introduce into a fictional universe is not mandated. Thankfully, I might add; if it were, you'd end up cutting off a lot of potentially interesting future forays into that same universe for the sake of eliminating all those threats you introduced.

If a show introduces a threat, it's the show's responsibility to get rid of that threat. TNG was similarly irresponsible when it left the Borg around instead of responsibly just killing them all in BOBW. If VOY didn't end the threat of the 8472, it's irresponsible. DS9 at least ended things with the Dominion somewhat favorably with Odo trying to reform them (though they really should've done more to cripple them or lessen their power by the end).

I'm sorry, but that's crap. It isn't "irresponsible," and certainly TNG was under no reasonable obligation to completely wipe the Borg out. Some threats can NEVER be completely eliminated in that fashion; it's completely unrealistic to expect it. And I mean that in both ways: it's unrealistic to demand such a thing from the producers/writers, and to assume that every threat introduced must at some point be completely squashed does not reflect reality. Life doesn't work that way, and neither does Star Trek. Now, CAN a show completely eliminate a threat, if those creating the show want to? Sure. I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T. If they really felt the need to ultimately sweep 8472 completely aside as a potential threat force, I'm not going to say they were wrong for doing so. I just think that the WAY they went about it was terrible, and that this notion that a show "must" completely eliminate all major threats they introduce or they are being irresponsible is nonsense. And no, before you say it: I didn't expect some "budget-gobbling" space battle, instead of what we got. AND, also before you say it: "what we actually got in the form of 'In the Flesh'", and "budget-gobbling space battle" WERE NOT the only two possible ways they could have dealt with 8472. Something in-between those two extremes would have been much better.

 

[RyuRoots]

Which was likely testing the waters, and finding out how unusable they were which only further necessitated "In the Flesh".

I find your ability to change what it is you're arguing from post to post to be absolutely fascinating.

 

[Kai Winn]

8472 were a lot like the thirdspace-aliens of b5, even the ships looked similar, but voy preceded here, too. there should have been a better expanation why they are going to leave the federation in peace than that silly episode, maybe simply that they can enter our galaxy only were they did to fight the borg, and fereration space is too remote.

 

[Anwar]

Uh... so? Just because threat A was stretched out over X length of time using method Y doesn't mean ALL threats must then follow a similar pattern.

Since DS9 was on at the same time with their Dominion story, most VOY viewers would've wanted something similar to the Dominion story in how they wanted the 8472 to pan out. It's like I said, they were expecting Scorpion to be a 100-parter, not a 2-parter.

And: Yes, they did fully "do that." I am defining "remove the threat" as "this threat is no longer an immediate threat in the context of this show." At the end of DS9, the "Dominion threat" was gone. Was there a guarantee that they would never attack again? No. Were they crippled to the point of being unable to make war? No. But when the closing credits rolled for the last time, they had peace. Not EVERY problem introduced into a TV show (or movie, or book, etc) necessarily needs to be solved to the point of "This threat is GONE FOREVER. It can NEVER be a threat again." To expect them all to be wrapped up like that is unrealistic.

I define "remove the threat" as a true removal/degrade in power level. Introduce some big space Empire? Then end the series with the good guys now on par with them so the enemy no longer has any advantage, or trash the enemy to the point that they can't fight anymore. Or just get rid of them totally via internal collapse or total annihilation. You DO NOT just leave them alone and think that some signature will keep them off your back.

And the Dominion itself is a great example of what I wanted done with 8472: remove the immediate threat; i.e., make it so that it's clear to the viewer that there's not going to be an 8472 invasion TOMORROW, and that if Voyager were to come across any 8472 they wouldn't automatically have to defend themselves. Neither of these things preclude keeping the door open for future stories.

Yeah, they do. If you introduce Space Cthulu who proclaim their desire to annihilate all life, you show they have this power, you deal with it. You don't just leave them be. There is no "Immediate threat", it's one massive threat that never stops being immediate.

Uh... no, it's not "lazy and irresponsible." It's a choice.

A bad one, then.

To COMPLETELY eliminate any major threat you introduce into a fictional universe is not mandated. Thankfully, I might add; if it were, you'd end up cutting off a lot of potentially interesting future forays into that same universe for the sake of eliminating all those threats you introduced.

Not ALL threats, just the uber-threats like the Borg, Dominion and 8472. Guys like the Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi, etc can be left out of it since none of them were ever portrayed as some massive galactic threat outside of any conflicts with the Federation.

I'm sorry, but that's crap. It isn't "irresponsible," and certainly TNG was under no reasonable obligation to completely wipe the Borg out.

The Borg were basically "What if those super-threats seen in other Trek shows stuck around for more than one episode?" Like the Doomsday Machine or V'Ger or the Crystalline Entity. And as we've discussed, they get boring really fast as a real enemy dramatically speaking. Sometimes a one-shot is best left as a one-shot. And I doubt many would complain if the Borg were all wiped out in BOBW since that story rose the bar too much.

Some threats can NEVER be completely eliminated in that fashion; it's completely unrealistic to expect it.

I'm saying only the Uber-Threats should be dealt with like that. After all, they do it most of the time anyways.

I just think that the WAY they went about it was terrible, and that this notion that a show "must" completely eliminate all major threats they introduce or they are being irresponsible is nonsense. And no, before you say it: I didn't expect some "budget-gobbling" space battle, instead of what we got. AND, also before you say it: "what we actually got in the form of 'In the Flesh'", and "budget-gobbling space battle" WERE NOT the only two possible ways they could have dealt with 8472. Something in-between those two extremes would have been much better.

The audience hates that VOY could actually talk with the 8472 in any way possible. If you take away the ability to talk all you can do to a hostile is fight. And the show already made it clear that any fight with them in doomed to failure before it starts even WITH the nano-weapons. So it really IS a choice between talking and fighting when you're dumb enough to make such an ungodly powerful enemy (like how the ONLY way to end a Borg encounter is to destroy them since running is ineffective because they were dumb enough to overpower them). So either kill them all, somehow, or...well, talking not an option so I guess killing all the 8472 is also their only course of action since they can't be left alone.

 

[exodus]

That's an interesting thought, actually. Realizing that any aggressiveness would cost them (which wasn't true before) would give them pause, which could lead them to more closely examine some of the non-Borg residents of our galaxy, which could lead to something like "In the Flesh," I just think that the way it was presented in the ep, the 8472 "problem" was wrapped up far too neatly and far too quickly.

I used to think that after the first time I watched the ep but upon my second viewing I realized that we never heard back from Boothby 8472's superiors. So I took it as no definate conclusion was even made about not invading. So much like the Vadwaar, the conclusion to 8472 is still left open ended.

Since Voy. the show is out of production, it leaves it open for a great fanfic to bring them back.

 

[BillJ]

It wasn't possible for VOY to do some big epic war with the 8472 due to budget, and it would've been irresponsible to leave things the way they were in "Scorpion" by not resolving anything. The 8472 had to be dealt with in a conclusive manner without resorting to war, and "In the Flesh" did that.

Or you could have left the thread hanging, in case you ended up heading to feature films like two prior Trek series.

 

[Anwar]

DS9 and VOY weren't going to get movies, I figured that was obvious even when I watched the show back then.

Either way, it's irresponsible to leave things hanging with an uber-foe like that. Imagine if TOS had just left the Doomsday Machine free to fly around the universe carving up planets? Not only would it be a ludicrous ending but it would make the heroes out to be incompetents.

Because in the end, that's what the Borg and 8472 are: One-Shot Uberfoes like V'Ger/the Whale Probe/Doomsday Machine if they made them come back more than once when it's clear there was never much to work with in the first place. At least not when you've overpowered them as much as you have.

 

[BillJ]

DS9 and VOY weren't going to get movies, I figured that was obvious even when I watched the show back then.

Of all the shows, Voyager was built for feature films. Good cast and interesting premise... until Management pissed all over it.

Either way, it's irresponsible to leave things hanging with an uber-foe like that. Imagine if TOS had just left the Doomsday Machine free to fly around the universe carving up planets? Not only would it be a ludicrous ending but it would make the heroes out to be incompetents.

The Doomsday Machine was a device, Species 8472 was a race. There are huge difference in story-telling potential there. YMMV.

 

[Anwar]

They already established the 8472 as an entire species of Cthulu, and there isn't much you can do to Cthulu much less an entire race of him. Unstoppable Xenocidal maniacs, the whole lot.

Overpowered races are the dumbest things you can introduce to a series. Even Babylon 5 made sure that Shadow ships could be defeated in normal combat, it just took a lot of effort to do so. And Trek tends to destroy all the overpowered entities it encounters, or does SOMETHING to get rid of them after one episode. The Borg and 8472 were the unfortunate exceptions.

Making Borg ships be invulnerable to normal weapons was a bad idea, their main advantage should've been the ability to regenerate the ship while being only SLIGHTLY tougher against each subsequent starship attack not totally 100% adapted to them in one go.

Like the first all out attack does damage to 10% of the ship, then the next one does 8%, then 6%, etc. And the adaptation takes a long time so they don't become invulnerable during the fight.

Uberfoes like the Borg and 8472 only work when there's another faction involved for the heroes to play off of, not when it's the heroes vs the Uberfoe full-on. BOBW only worked because of Picard's assimilation and it being the first Borg invasion story. After that, not much mileage left in the concept.

 

[propita]

The Borg attacked 8472 in 8472 space. 8472 therefore went against ALL lifeforms in our space. The truce could’ve been about 8472 learning that the Borg do not represent ALL lifeforms in our space. Well, Boothby taking that message back to his superiors.

That would’ve removed the immediate threat of 8472, but subject it to their further evaluation. Maybe seeing the infighting of species in our space and seeing that they’re not a threat.

The only reason the Federation was selected for the simulation was because the Borg kicked some 8472 ass, and 8472 saw that Voyager kicked Borg ass. Who’s the bigger threat to 8472, the bully (Borg) or the bully-that-beats-the-bully (Voyager)? However, if 8472 had learned so much about the Federation as to be able to duplicate it that well, they should’ve had enough intel to report the Federation as non-threat. Boothby said something about them thinking it was a charade and the Federation remained a threat, right, despite their observations?

 

[Anwar]

Exactly, it was all set up in Scorpion part II that the 8472 were the ones attacked first and their counter-attack just went overboard. This set up "In the flesh" pretty well.

It's just another case of over-popularity from the audience limiting what can be done with a new species. Folks liked the Xenocidal 8472 too much for further development of what they REALLY were, which was just a bunch of over-reactives.

 

[RyuRoots]

If a show introduces a threat, it's the show's responsibility to get rid of that threat. TNG was similarly irresponsible when it left the Borg around instead of responsibly just killing them all in BOBW. If VOY didn't end the threat of the 8472, it's irresponsible. DS9 at least ended things with the Dominion somewhat favorably with Odo trying to reform them (though they really should've done more to cripple them or lessen their power by the end).

I'm glad you don't write television. A show's RESPONSIBILITY? Seriously? That's rubbish, and I don't think any writer worth his or her keyboard would disagree. If DS9 completely got rid of the Dominion forever, I'd call bullshit and it would feel immensely unsatisfying. The same goes to either TNG OR Voyager for the Borg unless they did pull something pretty epic-scale like in the Destiny books. There's nothing wrong with leaving something open-ended for further writing possibilities, especially when you establish a foe as being very, very strong and hard to get rid of.

That said, I don't think it's their "responsibility" () to NOT get rid of them, either. In some stories and in the case of certain enemies, getting rid of them seems like the only logical conclusion. But see, that's the thing; it's an option and a choice, and in a general sense, one is no more or less valid than the other.

 

[Anwar]

The Dominion aren't as boring as the Borg, so they CAN be kept around if their power level is decreased a tad. After all, they are a facet of an otherwise unexplored area of space associated with them in the Gamma Quadrant so it's not like they're taking up space in the AQ from the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians/etc. But DS9 should've done more to lessen their power so it doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of the Alpha Quadrant if they break the Treaty. Plus without the wormhole they're still far away enough that they don't pose an immediate threat. They aren't as omnicidal as the Borg and the 8472.

The Borg and 8472, on the other hand, are in the totally different league. No way to settle things diplomatically (in a way that the audience would enjoy, anyways), and the thought of the good guys being able to fight them off only infuriates the audience more, also they can appear anywhere in the Galaxy at any moment (which just makes this another no-win since the audience doesn't want the good guys to be able to fight their enemies OR talk them down so I don't know WHAT is it they want...). So there really isn't any "further possibilities" with either of them. The best choice is to just get rid of them, permanently. If you REALLY want, you can leave a very small number of them alive for future appearances but their power and threat level should go down the toilet. They're too dangerous otherwise.

You want to keep them around? Make them less powerful and keep them stuck in the Delta Quadrant. And make the Borg less boring.

I mean seriously creating TWO foes whose goals are the destruction, one way or another, of all life in existence either through assimilation or annihilation, overpowering them so it's a real possibility this might happen, given them the NUMBERS to pull this off, and then not doing anything to resolve this?! That's not "leaving things open", that's lazy writing. Create an Omnicidal Maniac, give them the power to commit Omnicide, give them the NUMBERS to Omnicide, and then just LEAVE THEM BE?! WTF?!

 

[RyuRoots]

which just makes this another no-win since the audience doesn't want the good guys to be able to fight their enemies OR talk them down so I don't know WHAT is it they want...

You...really have never read any of the many rebuttals to this ridiculous "point" in most of your thread derailments, have you?

 

[JarodRussell]

Who decided that the Borg are boring?

 

[Seven of Five]

Like many people, I didn't like how Voyager basically destroyed the best villain species they had with "In the Flesh". However, watching it today having not seen it in a decade, I could (nearly) forgive that.

But do you know what kills that episode for me? The schamaltzy ending where Chakotay chats up "Commander Archer" (a surprisingly dull Kate Vernon) and Janeway is charmed when the 8472-Boothby gives her the flower.

It seems incredibly hard to believe that any discussion the Voyager crew had with the Species 8472 members could have convinced an amoral species who had been bent on genocide to change their mind and that Janeway would have believed that.

I remember hating the episode when I first saw it too. I thought it was a horrible way to make a powerful species toothless.

That's just not how I feel these days though. I actually think the episode is a good example of Trek morality, and how humans always make peace in the end.

Species 8472 came onto the scene blowing up Borg ships and planets, and their mantra of 'The Weak Will Perish!' was eerie. When it became apparent that the Borg had invaded their space and started the whole conflict, everyone's intentions were muddied. If 8472's first encounter with our galaxy is of a monstrous race bent on assimilation and destruction for their own lofty goals, then what is their first impression going to be?

Diplomacy was a natural step to take, and I'm happy the way the episode turned out - It's only like the Klingons eventually becoming Federation allies after years of conflict. I also like it because it used Chakotay in an interesting way, something that happened less after season two.

My stupid nitpick with the episode is why did Boothby have to be Janeway's role model too? There was emotional relevance with Picard and Wesley over on TNG. It felt like this episode's Boothby love-in was cashing in on previous episodes.

 

[RyuRoots]

My stupid nitpick with the episode is why did Boothby have to be Janeway's role model too? There was emotional relevance with Picard and Wesley over on TNG. It felt like this episode's Boothby love-in was cashing in on previous episodes.

He felt very out-of-character for me from what we saw in The First Duty. There, he came across as a crotchety old man who had a bit of a mentor streak for the kids that needed it. In In the Flesh, he came across as the lovable old mentor character, and it really didn't mesh to me.

 

[Saito S]

The Dominion aren't as boring as the Borg, so they CAN be kept around if their power level is decreased a tad. After all, they are a facet of an otherwise unexplored area of space associated with them in the Gamma Quadrant so it's not like they're taking up space in the AQ from the Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians/etc. But DS9 should've done more to lessen their power so it doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of the Alpha Quadrant if they break the Treaty. Plus without the wormhole they're still far away enough that they don't pose an immediate threat. They aren't as omnicidal as the Borg and the 8472.

Uh... "without the wormhole"? Since the wormhole isn't going anywhere according to the last moments of DS9, I'm not sure what bearing that has on anything. In any case: it DOESN'T necessarily mean the destruction of the AQ if they attack again. The four AQ powers that ended up fighting against the Dominion in WYLB combined can stand up to them. Now, WOULD all four of those powers be able to work together if the Dominion threat resurfaced. Dunno. But it could be an interesting story, finding out what would happen. Your idea is to cut off all possibilities of a future "Dominion threat is back", for reasons known only to you.

The Borg and 8472, on the other hand, are in the totally different league. No way to settle things diplomatically (in a way that the audience would enjoy, anyways),

Sure there are ways to settle things diplomatically that the audience would enjoy. It's just that the way the writers chose to go wasn't one of them.

and the thought of the good guys being able to fight them off only infuriates the audience more, also they can appear anywhere in the Galaxy at any moment (which just makes this another no-win since the audience doesn't want the good guys to be able to fight their enemies OR talk them down

Putting aside that you are AGAIN speaking for many people whose opinion you don't actually have any way of knowing... or perhaps you're not trying to speak for us, but assert again the existence of this imaginary hatedome, I don't know... anyway: I STILL don't buy the idea that this was a no-win scenario. The writers came up with a story ("In the Flesh") for 8472 that many people didn't like. That does not mean that those people wouldn't have liked ANY non-action story, nor does it mean that the writers couldn't have come up with anything better than what we got.
And! Even if I accepted the idea that the writers were in a no-win scenario (which, mind you, I don't), then it was one of their own making! They created 8472, and made them as powerful as they felt they needed to be for the Scorpion story. If that was such a big problem, well, guess they shouldn't have made them like that.

so I don't know WHAT is it they want...).

Truest thing you've ever said about Voyager's audience.

So there really isn't any "further possibilities" with either of them. The best choice is to just get rid of them, permanently.

No, that's what YOU would have done, apparently, were you in charge. Doesn't make it "the best choice" except in your opinion. You feel that Voyager should have gotten rid of 8472 decisively, you feel that TNG should have gotten rid of the Borg decisively, fine... I won't begrudge you your right to simply hold those opinions. But don't act like you are defending some kind of universally accepted/objective standard of fiction writing with this preposterous notion that a major, galaxy-shaking threat MUST be completely and utterly pacified (note, by your own words, "pacified" means literally totally unable to threaten people on the same scale they once did EVER again) by the end of that same production.

If you REALLY want, you can leave a very small number of them alive for future appearances but their power and threat level should go down the toilet. They're too dangerous otherwise.

Right, because, you know... they're real. They're "dangerous", since it's not like they're controlled by writers and producers, who can at any time just come up with a scenario wherein the good guys discover some way to counter the immense power these bad guys have. (Cue Anwar asserting that since it's Voyager, the audience would have hated it no matter what it was.)

I mean seriously creating TWO foes whose goals are the destruction, one way or another, of all life in existence either through assimilation or annihilation, overpowering them so it's a real possibility this might happen, given them the NUMBERS to pull this off, and then not doing anything to resolve this?! That's not "leaving things open", that's lazy writing. Create an Omnicidal Maniac, give them the power to commit Omnicide, give them the NUMBERS to Omnicide, and then just LEAVE THEM BE?! WTF?!

sigh

This probably won't do any good, but I'm just going to point out that I never said that the show should just "leave them be." That would be silly. All I said is A) there is no need for them to be damaged/changed/made peace with specifically to the degree that they could never POSSIBLY pose their initial level of threat again. And B) I said that what we got in the show as far as wrapping up the 8472 story, I didn't like. Not "they should never have wrapped up the 8472 story", not "all avenues involving diplomacy or talks with 8472 are dumb", just "I didn't like 'In the Flesh'". Yeesh.

Who decided that the Borg are boring?

Anwar, apparently.

 

[Anwar]

Who decided that the Borg are boring?

Whenever they show up, it's always that usual Big Voice saying "Resistance is futile" over and over and over. And TNG established that the Borg are vastly faster so you can't run from them, and they become invulnerable to your weaponry after one or two shots (and those one/two shots are never enough to destroy a Borg ship) meaning you can't destroy them without a plot contrivance.

So, to wit, you have an enemy that you can never have interesting interactions with since it's always just that same Voice saying the same thing over and over, you can't beat them with weapons, and you can't run or hide successfully since the Borg never lose interest and just leave after a while.

They also outnumber you 100:1.

All in all, you've created a Boring Invincible Enemy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain?from=Main.BoringInvincibleVillain), or a Villain Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue). Neither of which are something you keep around.

Plus, for anyone who says "Just think outside the box", TNG already exhausted that. Hack into the Collective mind and trigger some plot contrivance? They did that in BOBW meaning you can never do something like that again. Use a natural phenomenon like a Solar Flare? TNG did that too meaning you can't use THAT again either, like teleporting them into a Black Hole.

All together, VERY boring enemy. Just kill them in some fashion, be rid of them, learn the lesson of how NOT to make an adversary from them and apply that to any future foes.