Wasn't is kinda wierd that the S31-created disease....

[3D Master]

Timo said:

He was turned into an actual solid, not assume a solid form.

Is there a difference?

Yes.

When Odo plays rock, he becomes rock for all practical purposes; he tells as much in "The Search" and "Homefront". When he plays humanoid, he cheats because the task is complex and he is young and inexperienced. But if forced to play humanoid with the sort of accuracy that adult Changelings can achieve, he would no doubt have a digestive tract, a pair of lungs, and all the other trappings of a regular humanoid.

Odo is not a 100% rock when he turns into a rock. If he was, he would never be able to turn back into a changeling. A rock after all, cannot change shape and turn into jelly. Nor would Odo be able to perceive anything as a rock, he wouldn't be able to tell that he was a rock or anything else one way or the other; because a rock has no eyes, no ears, no brain, etc.

A changeling cannot remain solid indefinitely; it will die.

Where is this established?

A Changeling child will get uncomfortable if it cannot regenerate often (Odo began with 16 hours in early S1, then went to 18 hours; he may have started out with 2 hours or something). Some Romulans believed once that they could kill a Changeling by forcing it to remain in one shape for a long time; they never achieved that effect. And we have seen Changelings die for assorted reasons, but failing to shapeshift was never really explicated as one of them.

Actually, we HAVE seen that effect. Odo was falling apart and was about to die when he couldn't change into a jelly. The only reason he didn't, was because Garak shut the thing off.

...liquid, the founders would have NO way to convey what they want, they're liquid.

They could always make waves.

Oh, right. A wave... "Establish a beach head at coordinates and attack that planet."

That's right up there with:

Bark. "What Lassie? Petey is trapped in a well two miles south to south west from here? And we need a rope at least 3 meters long? And Einstein is right, time is relative? We'll get on it!"

 

[Timo]

But a humanoid should be no more able to shapeshift than a rock. Yet we know that Odo can fool the finest instruments of the Federation to thinking that he is a rock one moment, a humanoid another. Those instruments can reveal no internal mechanism that would allow shapeshifting. Just like they did not when Odo was condemned to solidity.

Obviously there is a property of shapeshiftingness to the Changelings that is "out of this world", invisible to the finest sensors. This would be the only thing separating the solidified Odo from a real humanoid, so by definition Bashir could not tell which one of those Odo has become.

It sounds extremely unlikely that mere touch with a dying Changeling baby could turn Bashir into a Changeling. When it does that trick to Odo, then, we should suspect that the baby's touch merely removed some sort of a minor block in Odo's shapeshiftingness. It need have been nothing more than a psychological lockup of some sort - a conditioning that makes Odo unwilling to shapeshift out of his forced perfect-humanoid shape, and hence unable.

The bottom line is, having the "solid" Odo be nothing more than a shapeshifting act that Odo can't shake because of a mental block is the easiest way to explain the events of "The Begotten", or indeed the whole magic of turning Odo into such a humanoid in the first place. And having adult Changelings be capable of holding a form indefinitely (or at least for months at an end) is a good way to explain how they can plausibly impersonate high leaders in the paranoid Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian empires.

Actually, we HAVE seen that effect. Odo was falling apart and was about to die when he couldn't change into a jelly.

He was in pain, yes. But "falling apart" is not fatal for Changelings - indeed, it is what they routinely do for a living! Odo might have been dying of the shock of pain, but there is no real need to think he was dying out of the inability to shapeshift.

Anyway, when the Link is hurt by the bioweapon, it is a sickly green sea, but it still moves. An unhurt Link is a very active sea, capable of subtle movement in its orange-glowing state. It can definitely interact meaningfully with its surroundings without assuming a solid shape. Having a permanently liquid Link command the Dominion would not be significantly different from having a paralyzed, seizure-stricken, drooling and stammering Roosevelt command the United States - as long as those being commanded didn't learn about the shameful disability and rise against their now-disgraced ruler.

Now, if your version of the weapon were able to turn the Changelings into a truly passive liquid rather than the very active Changeling goo that we always see, that would be the end of the Dominion. A paralyzed, drooling president can still effectively lead the country, from behind suitably chaste curtains. A comatose president cannot.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[3D Master]

Timo said:
But a humanoid should be no more able to shapeshift than a rock. Yet we know that Odo can fool the finest instruments of the Federation to thinking that he is a rock one moment, a humanoid another. Those instruments can reveal no internal mechanism that would allow shapeshifting. Just like they did not when Odo was condemned to solidity.

Obviously there is a property of shapeshiftingness to the Changelings that is "out of this world", invisible to the finest sensors. This would be the only thing separating the solidified Odo from a real humanoid, so by definition Bashir could not tell which one of those Odo has become.

It sounds extremely unlikely that mere touch with a dying Changeling baby could turn Bashir into a Changeling. When it does that trick to Odo, then, we should suspect that the baby's touch merely removed some sort of a minor block in Odo's shapeshiftingness. It need have been nothing more than a psychological lockup of some sort - a conditioning that makes Odo unwilling to shapeshift out of his forced perfect-humanoid shape, and hence unable.

The bottom line is, having the "solid" Odo be nothing more than a shapeshifting act that Odo can't shake because of a mental block is the easiest way to explain the events of "The Begotten", or indeed the whole magic of turning Odo into such a humanoid in the first place. And having adult Changelings be capable of holding a form indefinitely (or at least for months at an end) is a good way to explain how they can plausibly impersonate high leaders in the paranoid Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian empires.

The changeling baby did not merely touch Odo, it fully went into Odo. And that also means it's not a simple mental block. Odo cannot keep his shape for long periods of time, after a while, when forced to remain, he will decompose, fall apart, have his "skin" peel of, and die. A mental block would not have stopped this; essentially Odo would have had the same thing happen to him as the Romulan torture device did if it were no more than a mental block. Odo was turned into a solid, even if not a 100% human or humanoid, he was still very much solid. Whether or not Federation sensors aren't fine enough to detect the changeling properties has no bearing on any of it.

Actually, we HAVE seen that effect. Odo was falling apart and was about to die when he couldn't change into a jelly.

He was in pain, yes. But "falling apart" is not fatal for Changelings - indeed, it is what they routinely do for a living! Odo might have been dying of the shock of pain, but there is no real need to think he was dying out of the inability to shapeshift.

There's turning into jelly, and then there's falling apart. Odo was falling apart, is skin was peeling off, and more. His changeling structure couldn't keep up, but something kept it from turning to its natural state, and now it's internal function was being torn to shreds, which caused its solid form to start falling apart as well. It would have eventually killed him.

Anyway, when the Link is hurt by the bioweapon, it is a sickly green sea, but it still moves. An unhurt Link is a very active sea, capable of subtle movement in its orange-glowing state. It can definitely interact meaningfully with its surroundings without assuming a solid shape. Having a permanently liquid Link command the Dominion would not be significantly different from having a paralyzed, seizure-stricken, drooling and stammering Roosevelt command the United States - as long as those being commanded didn't learn about the shameful disability and rise against their now-disgraced ruler.

Whether it can interact with its surroundings (which it can't, it's just liquid, it's just sitting there as the elements cause waves and ripples just like with water), doesn't matter. They have to be able to communicate with Vorta and/or Jem'Hadar, which is a very different thing even if they could do the former. A liquid link equals no command capabilities, and the Dominion forces being leaderless.

Now, if your version of the weapon were able to turn the Changelings into a truly passive liquid rather than the very active Changeling goo that we always see, that would be the end of the Dominion. A paralyzed, drooling president can still effectively lead the country, from behind suitably chaste curtains. A comatose president cannot.

There is no active goo, it's always passive. It just lies there lying, just like water. That wind and other elements cause waves, does not equal active.

 

[Timo]

The changeling baby did not merely touch Odo, it fully went into Odo.

Okay, so a Changeling baby "fully going into" Bashir would turn the Doctor into a shapeshifter? I think not.

And that also means it's not a simple mental block. Odo cannot keep his shape for long periods of time, after a while, when forced to remain, he will decompose, fall apart, have his "skin" peel of, and die. A mental block would not have stopped this

Why not, if the decomposing is a mental effect to begin with? It may very well be something related to the extreme youth of Odo, because there is little evidence any of the adults would suffer from such a handicap. Even our heroes and villains never attempt to exploit the regeneration cycle of a Changeling other than Odo!

There is no active goo, it's always passive.

No, when we see it, it's always moving. The ripple effects have little to do with wind, because they are present even in Odo's tiny indoors bucket. And the baby demonstrates a beautiful transition step between passivity and the sort of activity that results in massive optical changes - it assumes shapes but does not lose the amber glow and transparency. So the Link could literally "baby talk" its way out of the dilemma, developing a "sign language" of sorts. You know, scribbling "NO KILL I" with controlled waves and stuff.

A great leader who has been rendered invalid is still worth communicating with, even if it is through something a hundred times more complex than Stephen Hawkins' voice box...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

I still don't understand what you're all arguing about. In DS9 it says explicitly that the founders are 'dying' and that the Federation has attempted 'genocide'. That's good enough for me.

 

[Timo]

For me, too. But the idea of a nonlethal bioweapon is intriguing indeed, and 3DMaster's proposed solution to the "Founder problem" creates all sorts of interesting ramifications and analogies (the castration of sexual offenders comes first to mind).

It's just that I feel that this alternate solution would not have worked in the reality outlined by DS9, and that S31 thus should not be given further demerit for using a lethal rather than nonlethal bioweapon.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DanCPA]

Mike Have-Not said:
Started manifesting itself in Odo RIGHT after Bashir found out Odo was infected?...

nah... Maybe that's how it came out

 

[3D Master]

Timo said:

The changeling baby did not merely touch Odo, it fully went into Odo.

Okay, so a Changeling baby "fully going into" Bashir would turn the Doctor into a shapeshifter? I think not.

And that also means it's not a simple mental block. Odo cannot keep his shape for long periods of time, after a while, when forced to remain, he will decompose, fall apart, have his "skin" peel of, and die. A mental block would not have stopped this

Why not, if the decomposing is a mental effect to begin with? It may very well be something related to the extreme youth of Odo, because there is little evidence any of the adults would suffer from such a handicap. Even our heroes and villains never attempt to exploit the regeneration cycle of a Changeling other than Odo!

Right, because when an outside field prevents him from shape shifting, the not shape shifting is not causing him pain and to decompose and die, it's his own mind that is giving him pain and making him decompose and die...

There is no active goo, it's always passive.

No, when we see it, it's always moving. The ripple effects have little to do with wind, because they are present even in Odo's tiny indoors bucket. And the baby demonstrates a beautiful transition step between passivity and the sort of activity that results in massive optical changes - it assumes shapes but does not lose the amber glow and transparency. So the Link could literally "baby talk" its way out of the dilemma, developing a "sign language" of sorts. You know, scribbling "NO KILL I" with controlled waves and stuff.

It can't control anything, that would be the point of the bloody virus: no shape shifting whatsoever anymore. Besides, put water in a bucket, you still get waves, especially if you walk by it and make the bucket gently vibrate.

A great leader who has been rendered invalid is still worth communicating with, even if it is through something a hundred times more complex than Stephen Hawkins' voice box...

They can't do it. They're not rendered invalid. They're rendered in an effective coma. No movement, no shape shifting, no nothing nada zilch.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

Bah. Odo, while in the link, was judged, turned to a solid with organs and blood. They also imparted a false impression that Gowron was a Changeling infiltrator. Changelings were not an inert blob while in the link.

While Odo was inked to the Founder leading the War, he apparently communicated enough to her to convince her to stand down the Dominion forces and stand trial. All this in the space of mere seconds. Everything we’ve seen, says that what happens in the Link in terms of nuance and speed of communication is like dial-up versus broadband when compared to humans.

 

[Timo]

I can see where 3D is coming from, though. If the weapon not only prevented the transition from goo to solid forms, but in addition somehow rendered the goo comatose, then everything would work as he intends.

For a short while, anyhow. But if the goo goes comatose, it's likely to die in a short while as a consequence, unless hooked up to some sort of a life support machine - organisms don't generally survive extended coma unassisted. So the "nonlethal" weapon would still be lethal in the end.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FPAlpha]

I could also believe that S31 placed a permanent operative on DS9.. Odo was a key figure in their plan to defeat the Dominion and this Operative may have had a trigger device to activate the virus somehow should the need arise.

I can't believe that S31 wouldn't have an Operative on one of the most important space stations in the quadrant (except for Sloane who only went there when his business demanded it).

 

[Timo]

That trigger idea is a good one. The disease might even have been customized to go to high gear when studied with a technology that stood a chance of revealing its existence, as a self-preservation measure. That way, there would be no hope of discovering a cure: the very attempt at finding one would hasten the deaths of the victims.

Oh, and happy birthday!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

My only response is that I think you guys are as shrewd as anyone in Section 31 could ever hope to be. If I had the chance to develope a pathogen or virus that would kill my enemy, I use it. I wouldn't wait to develope triggers to preserve it and activate further stages in the presence of some particular technology, which may or may not detect it. Especially when they may not even know how it was delivered.

However, you two are on my team if ever we have to plan to destroy an emeny as deadly as the Dominion! :thumbsup: