Was Trek ever really intelligent sci-fi?

[Push The Button]

Well, I watched the series for the first time a few months ago, and I must say, near the end the show got weirder and weirder and weirder. So much so that I couldn't understand what the hell was happening in the last two episodes. Almost unwatchable. And this is coming from someone who likes David Lynch's Inland Empire.
To me it definitely felt like the writers were on something. A real disapointment after the fantastic first ten episodes.

Are we talking about Lost?

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I (finally) saw the final episode of The Prisoner about a year ago. I must say that it was probably the only time an entertainment-type show made me angry, and I felt that I wasted my time watching the series, and to be honest I'll probably never re-visit it again because of that episode.

I get that the series went beyond what McGoohan had in mind for stories (i.e. number of episodes), but surely something would have been possible beyond the annoying tripe we ended up with.

Looking back, it made These Are the Voyages look like All Good Things by comparison!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There are some very excellent episodes of The Prisoner.

"Fall Out" isn't my favorite either by a country mile, but even it has its moments. For example, the loop back to the opening sequence with him driving his car in the country is one of my favorite moments of the series; to me it symbolizes and implies that he has always been both free and a prisoner. On the downside of the finale, I thought it was deliberately overly obtuse and nonsensical. But.... that doesn't dim the brilliance of many of the other episodes. And, in fairness, the mad can't necessarily comprehend that they're mad much less why they're mad. Permanent insanity was one likely outcome of his imprisonment, for one or more reasons that should be pretty obvious.

I rewatched most episodes last year, and I thought that "Many Happy Returns" was one of the most moving and brilliant episodes. There are many tense and disturbing moments throughout the series. Even despite my dissatisfaction with the finale, I consider the show to be a masterpiece.

For an example of intelligent, adult, and (in broad strokes) politically controversial science fiction, see The Prisoner.

 

[The Wormhole]

Adult sci-fi:


Sorry, someone had to.

Some of the actors in that are surprisingly spot-on. Hell, I'd probably cast some of them in my own New Voyages like TNG fan production.

 

[BigJake]

Adult sci-fi:


Sorry, someone had to.

Some of the actors in that are surprisingly spot-on.

In a way that's just what's so creepy about it.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I get that the series went beyond what McGoohan had in mind for stories (i.e. number of episodes), but surely something would have been possible beyond the annoying tripe we ended up with.

That's the big question. McGoohan had realized he had written himself into a corner (just like the TNG producers for BoBW or the producers of LOST). He got himself a couple of sandwiches, whiskey and cigarettes and locked himself into the trailer the night before shooting.

He hated the James Bond concept (he turned down to play 007 which then passed to Sean Connery) and the one thing he was most assuredly not to give audiences was a Number One villain like Blofeld who had just gotten featured in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE (Fallout has several moments that look like his vitriolic reaction to the latest Bond film, then ).

No matter how bizzarre, weird or grotesque the final episode was, it had the correct message (the worst enemy you could possibly encounter is yourself) - and a rather bold one coming from a devout Catholic, I should add (don't blame the devil when the one to actually blame is yourself).

The episode does look like the antithesis to Awesome Wells' adaptation of Franz Kafka's The Trial and stays somewhat faithful to the original statement of the main protagonist, Number Six: "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, debriefed or numbered!" Same goes for his series that refuses up to this day to be filed, indexed or numbered (which also applies to the major production being filmed next door: 2001), I find this symmetry rather fascinating.

Looking back, it made These Are the Voyages look like All Good Things by comparison!

I couldn't disagree more. What was the message or statement? That Riker needed a history lesson to make up his mind whether to tell Captain Picard what really happened on the Pegasus (which ne never did because he was under Pressman's orders not to do so ).

Some audiences like their finales to be straightforward and self-explanatory, others - like me - don't mind a finale which retains an obvious ambiguity and offers multiple interpretations (I'm talking PRISONER, not LOST!).

The intriguing thing about the series up to this day for me is that it remains inconclusive whether the Village is run by the "other side" (to extract information from Number Six), by his own people (to see if they can accept his resignation and how he would hold up under pressure) or some kind of twisted alien experiment (ballon-like "Rovers").

Bob

 

[Commishsleer]

I think that people who are truly mature are willing to enjoy any entertaining story without worrying about how "adult" it is.

That's nice. Of course I already said as much.

Of course, one can easily assert something like "the only people who react negatively to having children's entertainment identified as such are adults who are insecure in their maturity." I tend to think that's probably as inaccurate and as much of an overstatement as yours.

Nonetheless, the preoccupations of "Star Trek" remain adolescent; the show doesn't have much to say about the emotional and life concerns of adults. There's no reason that it should, of course, since like most adventure fiction it's devoted to the impossible adventures of people who could not exist.

So you're saying Kirk's affections for Edith Keeler and Picard's rejection of a lover because he might one day have to order her into danger are essentially adolescent? Because they don't have shades of subtlety or because they are unrealistic or unwise romances. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here just trying to understand.

IMO I sort of reject the lack of 'adult' concepts in Star Trek. I can point out a million of them. What I think people are trying to say is a lack of sophistication, maybe?

 

[2takesfrakes]

Does Kirk (from The Original Series) ever wine, or dine any of his conquests? It's not even clear if Kirk knows what foreplay is. The one time we do see him going out to dinner with a woman, he leaves her with the bill ... the bad news ... basically saying to her, "I don't have any money." I mean ... what the BALLS, with this guy?! TOS definitely could've benefitted from sophistication ... in all areas, actually.

 

[Mudd]

So you're saying Kirk's affections for Edith Keeler and Picard's rejection of a lover because he might one day have to order her into danger are essentially adolescent? Because they don't have shades of subtlety or because they are unrealistic or unwise romances?

Actually, I think "City On The Edge Of Forever" is one of Trek's few moments of fairly successful narrative ambition. That said, in the end it's less a story of love than it is one of Harlan Ellison's fantasies in which the woman is a sacrificial figure which the tormented male must dispose of in order to assert his autonomy, like Quilla in "A Boy and His Dog."

(Okay, maybe that's putting it too squarely on Ellison's shoulders in this case; in his draft of "City," Kirk would save Keeler while Spock would sacrifice her).

 

[Warped9]

This reminds me of a lit teacher suggesting the written line line "The ball was blue" was an indication of the author's emotional state or something. Later the author himself was asked what he meant by "The ball was blue" whereupon he answered, "I meant the ball was fucking blue."

Has Trek been intelligent? Yes.

Has it been consistently intelligent? No.

Can it be intelligent again? I certainly hope so.

 

[Mytran]

Regarding The Prisoner, I seem to recall that the original request was for 6 episodes (plus the as-yet unwritten finale): This would have produced a very tight, well written series.
It then got expanded to 13 episodes (plus the finale) but that wasn't enough for a proper American release (or something) and a further 3 episodes were shuffled out. To this day, whenever I rewatch the series I skip those further 3 (Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling, Living in Harmony, The Girl Who Was Death) as the poorest written of the bunch.

The final episode is a head-scratcher and does lag in places, but there's enough material to encourage debate so it gets a pass IMO.

 

[Robert Comsol]

(Okay, maybe that's putting it too squarely on Ellison's shoulders in this case; in his draft of "City," Kirk would save Keeler while Spock would sacrifice her).

I'm at a loss to imagine the early draft scene, could you please elaborate?

(as it stands, I'd have to visualize that Kirk pulls Edith back, who is next grabbed by Spock who pushes her onto the street...)

@ Mytran

I think you got it covered. "The Girl Who Was Death" was originally a script proposal for "Danger Man / Secret Agent" and can't be taken too seriously (though it had some hilarious moments). But at least it was a forewarning to audiences in terms of weirdness - after that episode almost anything was possible.

Bob

 

[JarodRussell]

(Okay, maybe that's putting it too squarely on Ellison's shoulders in this case; in his draft of "City," Kirk would save Keeler while Spock would sacrifice her).

I'm at a loss to imagine the early draft scene, could you please elaborate?

(as it stands, I'd have to visualize that Kirk pulls Edith back, who is next grabbed by Spock who pushes her onto the street...)

Bob

And then looking at the carnage. "Fascinating."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think that people who are truly mature are willing to enjoy any entertaining story without worrying about how "adult" it is.

That's nice. Of course I already said as much.

Of course, one can easily assert something like "the only people who react negatively to having children's entertainment identified as such are adults who are insecure in their maturity." I tend to think that's probably as inaccurate and as much of an overstatement as yours.

Nonetheless, the preoccupations of "Star Trek" remain adolescent; the show doesn't have much to say about the emotional and life concerns of adults. There's no reason that it should, of course, since like most adventure fiction it's devoted to the impossible adventures of people who could not exist.

So you're saying Kirk's affections for Edith Keeler and Picard's rejection of a lover because he might one day have to order her into danger are essentially adolescent? Because they don't have shades of subtlety or because they are unrealistic or unwise romances. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth here just trying to understand.

IMO I sort of reject the lack of 'adult' concepts in Star Trek. I can point out a million of them. What I think people are trying to say is a lack of sophistication, maybe?

Speaking for myself, I'm afraid I can't see Picard's rejection of Nella Daren as anything other than that resetting of characters for the next episode that occurs in procedural series. Since that resetting is what's driving the character beats, it isn't adult and it isn't even adolescent. It's nothing really, except just TV. That sort of thing had been seen on TV hundreds of times before, so that makes it a cliché really, and I thought it was an eye-rolling one on first viewing.

 

[Commishsleer]

Does Kirk (from The Original Series) ever wine, or dine any of his conquests? It's not even clear if Kirk knows what foreplay is. The one time we do see him going out to dinner with a woman, he leaves her with the bill ... the bad news ... basically saying to her, "I don't have any money." I mean ... what the BALLS, with this guy?! TOS definitely could've benefitted from sophistication ... in all areas, actually.

Actually if you look closely Kirk does often wine and dine them. He takes Edith on dates, he drank with the underage Lenore, he tried to wine and dine Miranda Jones and even he ate and drank with Rayna.
Just because he didn't have the fabulous 10F to seduce the ladies like Riker did...

(Okay, maybe that's putting it too squarely on Ellison's shoulders in this case; in his draft of "City," Kirk would save Keeler while Spock would sacrifice her).

I'm at a loss to imagine the early draft scene, could you please elaborate?

(as it stands, I'd have to visualize that Kirk pulls Edith back, who is next grabbed by Spock who pushes her onto the street...)

@ Mytran

I think you got it covered. "The Girl Who Was Death" was originally a script proposal for "Danger Man / Secret Agent" and can't be taken too seriously (though it had some hilarious moments). But at least it was a forewarning to audiences in terms of weirdness - after that episode almost anything was possible.

Bob

From memory I think Ellison was very upset that Kirk let Edith die. He thought it changed the whole meaning of his work. Which it did. I think GR wanted it changed to show that Kirk was a different sort of man than Ellison was written. That he put duty above everything.

 

[Mudd]

This reminds me of a lit teacher suggesting the written line line "The ball was blue" was an indication of the author's emotional state or something. Later the author himself was asked what he meant by "The ball was blue" whereupon he answered, "I meant the ball was fucking blue."

I'm fascinated. Tell me more.

I think Ellison was very upset that Kirk let Edith die. He thought it changed the whole meaning of his work. Which it did.

Exactly so.

IIRC Ellison's version had Spock preventing Kirk in pretty much the same way that Kirk prevents McCoy from rescuing Keeler in the aired version, so it's not really difficult to visualize.

 

[Robert Comsol]

This reminds me of a lit teacher suggesting the written line line "The ball was blue" was an indication of the author's emotional state or something. Later the author himself was asked what he meant by "The ball was blue" whereupon he answered, "I meant the ball was fucking blue."

So it wasn't about the author's emotional state but the (horny) state of the ball? *ducks*

Bob

 

[Warped9]

This reminds me of a lit teacher suggesting the written line line "The ball was blue" was an indication of the author's emotional state or something. Later the author himself was asked what he meant by "The ball was blue" whereupon he answered, "I meant the ball was fucking blue."

So it wasn't about the author's emotional state but the (horny) state of the ball? *ducks*

Bob

Wouldn't it have then been more purple?

 

[2takesfrakes]

So it wasn't about the author's emotional state but the (horny) state of the ball? *ducks*

Bob

Wouldn't it have then been more purple?

Purple ... Hairy ... & Swinging!

 

[2takesfrakes]

Does Kirk ever wine, or dine any of his conquests?

Actually if you look closely Kirk does often wine and dine them. He takes Edith on dates, he drank with the underage Lenore, he tried to wine and dine Miranda Jones and even he ate and drank with Rayna.
Just because he didn't have the fabulous 10F to seduce the ladies like Riker did...

Ten Forward was cool, wasn't it? And yes, I'd forgotten about those smooth moves Kirk was using on mentioned ladies. ... I stand corrected.