• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Was Threshold really that bad?

HortaVorta said:
One thing I give this episode credit for exploring, however ineptly: The fact that evolution isn't about becoming more "advanced", but adapting to environmental change.
How was that idea conveyed in this episode?

How does that explain the near-lethal physiological changes that happened while becoming that Salamander? Without medical attention, Tom would have died long before reaching Voyager-inhabiting-Human's evolutionary peak.
 
HortaVorta said:
One thing I give this episode credit for exploring, however ineptly: The fact that evolution isn't about becoming more "advanced", but adapting to environmental change.

The Borg Queen said:
How was that idea conveyed in this episode?

How does that explain the near-lethal physiological changes that happened while becoming that Salamander? Without medical attention, Tom would have died long before reaching Voyager-inhabiting-Human's evolutionary peak.

Well, I didn't say they pulled it off as such. And was he meant to be recapitulating phylogeny? I thought it was supposed to be some (erroneous) "end-state". It really only has validity if one invokes a transwarp-induced quantum mechanic paradox to posit that he was developing into a salamander because farther up his timeline he is in an environment suited to an amphibian lifestyle, cause after effect.

Eh, the whole thing is dodgy, given that we're already dealing with the Trek given that this stuff can manifest in a single individual in the first place. ;)
 
Threshold,that bad?
Not really,it seemed like a campy tongue in cheek kind of episode.It showed a great imagination on the part of the writers.It was a fun episode, never boring OMHO

H200
 
I'll admit that I've never seen Threshold before, but I am well versed with other turds VOY popped out ("The Q And The Grey" and "The 39's" spring to mind). But after reading about it on this and other boards, it has taken on this mythical, "Star Wars Holiday Special" level of bad (if such a thing is possible) in many fans' eyes. It makes me compelled to finally watch it. Could any of you PM me and let me know when Spike airs it, as I don't want to blow a wad cash for a box set just for one episode?
 
I just caught this episode again today and it wasn't nearly as bad as I remember it. While the whole evolution part was silly, the episode had some 'classic' charcter moments that I liked. The scene with Tuvok and Chakoty that someone already mentioned, Neelix solving a problem without knowing how he did it :) and right at the end there was a Janeway and Tom scene that was well done.

Cheers,
Kytee
 
Yes, Threshold was really that bad. Here's some contemporary reactions:

Jammer gave it 0 stars and called it, "one of the all-time worst episodes of Star Trek ever filmed."

Tim Lynch gave it a 2 out of 10 and called it, "one of the dumbest Trek story ideas ever constructed." Shortly afterward, he stopped reviewing (watching?) Voyager.

Bernd Schneider gave it a 1 out of 10 and devoted a section to it on his Voyager Inconsistencies page.

The Spoiler-free Opinion Summary gave Threshold an average of 4.2 out of 10, placing it at the bottom of season 2.

Jim Wright apparently liked it, but his site is suffering link rot and I can't find the review. Oh, well.

If Threshold looks better over time, that says more about post-Threshold Trek than it does about the episode itself. It remains a ludicrous work of science-fiction, a boring adventure, a banal character study, and when it tries to be funny, a dull comedy.
 
Delta1 said:If Threshold looks better over time, that says more about post-Threshold Trek than it does about the episode itself. It remains a ludicrous work of science-fiction, a boring adventure, a banal character study, and when it tries to be funny, a dull comedy.

So .. you're saying every syllable uttered, every bit of blocking or reaction, every note of underscore, every effect (optical or live), every single tenth of a second was bad?

Because that's what it has to be to be a zero. That means NOTHING. Not a single instant was any good at all.

Uh-huh ... and yet you seem to know the episode so well, you've obviously gagged through it more than once for some reason.

--Ted
 
I liked "Threshold" because it entertained me. It told an interesting story with some nice acting moments by McNeill and had some memorable and comedic lines too. Once in awhile, a somewhat 'silly' storyline can be a welcome reprieve from all that is serious. I look to Trek to be interesting and get my attention off the real world at large. This ep was one that did just that. I will always enjoy it.
 
I actually agree with the premise of the original post and I am the last person that would ever be considered a gusher for VOY.

This episode is not that bad. The warp 10 ceiling was actually established by Gene Roddenberry during the first season production of TNG, despite what Riker says in AGT. You simply have to accept the fact that in the alternate future of AGT Starfleet had redrawn the warp scale again, as happened between TOS and TNG. Just because the scale changed, doesn't mean the speed changed. 32º F isn't any colder or warmer than 0º C. But I digress...

Let's see... Brannon Braga doesn't understand how evolution works and thus the main thrust of the story is just silly. You don't just poof and evolve into something for the hell of it, it's a process of natural selection.
Well, actually you're making a layman's mistake of confusing natural selection with evolution. The two theories are normally linked, but they are not the same thing and in this case natural selection has nothing to do whatsoever with what happened in this episode. I'm not going to go into further explanation of Darwin's theories and subsequent scientists' theories regarding natural selection and evolution because it detracts from the discussion at hand, but suffice it to say, linking the two for the discussion of this episode is inappropriate.
Outside forces dictate evolutionary progress. Might that mean evolving into lizards having sex in the mud? Maybe. But not just because he went really really fast in a ship.
You're on the right track in the beginning here. Yes, external (as do internal) forces do dictate evolution and yes, it is possible that we may one day evolve into big salamanders but it was never posited in this episode that the reason was because he went really, really fast. What was posited was that Paris attained infinite velocity (i.e., simultaneously occupying every point in the Universe at once) and that this state affected his biology in a matter that caused accelerated evolution. What you're suggesting is that going really, really fast makes humans evolve into lizards (according to the ep.). No. According to the ep. attaining infinite velocity causes a process to begin, not a specific end-result.

Another point regarding evolution and this episode that I never see brought up (except for by me about 6 years ago) is that the reason Paris and Janeway evolved (or de-evolved) into the beings that they did is because the accelerated evolution had a very narrow internal and external template to adapt to. Evolution usually takes place over hundreds of thousands to millions of years. During these eons an organism's internal and external influences are in a constant state of change, therefore it evolves accordingly. Well, in this case, these eons never happened and the internal and external influences never changed but the accelerated evolution responded in the same manner that it would have if they had.

To put it simply, think of a human being living on a starship in a controlled environment with high-end purification systems, synthesized food, 24th century medical care and a basically sterile environment for hundreds of thousands or millions of years with absolutely no change to the environment whatsoever. According to that criteria (due to the accelerated evolution) the salamander may very well have been the end-result of that accelerated evolution.

I personally believe that the big problem that people have with this is that nobody (and I include myself in this group) wants to consider the idea that we could eventually evolve into creatures that were like what we saw in this episode.

The real problems, however, with this episode are the same problems that plagued the entire series as a whole. Mind you, I do like VOY, but what really made this episode go off the deep end of ridiculous could have been easily resolved if the issues weren't so inherent in the series.

1.) The whole concept of this episode should have been played out into a 2 episode story arc. I think this ep. is 41 minutes in length and they're just getting into the story by minute 38 and then they wrap it up wit this ridiculous ending to squeeze the whole story in.

2.) To further that, they abused the reset button again proving that it's not just for time travel episodes.

That being said, I think Threshold, like a lot of VOY ep.'s had a great deal of potential that was squandered by poor execution.

-Shawn :borg:
 
It wasn't evolution. It was the opposite if that's not also called evolution?

Tom was not allowed to fly because he had a recessive gene thingy that had a fraction of a percent of flaring up if he rode a shuttle through into the weired energy fields of transwarp space...

A problem which didn't reignite when that Borg Cube was towing towing Voyager in Scorpion, or the Borg Shpere towed in Unimatrix 0, or when Voyager as well as the Delta Flier used a stoeln transwarp coil in Dark Frontier... of course Borg tech probably compensated, and actual transwarp speeds are different to tunneling through space with Transwarp conduits... but the Voth ate Voyager and then went into transwarp speed in Distant origin.

Ah, whatever, the Salamander was an aborted evolutionary choice from yonks ago and not some future potential depending on the environment man choses to live in. unless of course the Salamanda is perfectly suited to live in Transwarp Space?

Janeway got a shag, that's 5 points. Tom got a shag, that's 5 points too. 10 out of ten in my book. :)
 
Guy Gardener said:
It wasn't evolution. It was the opposite if that's not also called evolution?

The episode stated specifically that it was evolution. Your perception of what happened may be that of devolution, but that means nothing when the episode stated in no uncertain terms that what happened to Paris and Janeway was evolution (moving forward, not backward).

The reason people see it as a devolution, is because we're a VERY VERY arrogant and "holier than thou" race, and see a "forward movement in development" as something that will make us something we perceive as better, not worse. But who's to say that those "salamanders" (as we're not-so-enlighteningly calling them) aren't "better" than we are?
 
Guy Gardener said:
It wasn't evolution. It was the opposite if that's not also called evolution?
Wrong. It was evolution. It was even stated as much on the ep. How do you know that the creature he involved into isn't a higher being?

Tom was not allowed to fly because he had a recessive gene thingy that had a fraction of a percent of flaring up if he rode a shuttle through into the weired energy fields of transwarp space...

A problem which didn't reignite when that Borg Cube was towing towing Voyager in Scorpion, or the Borg Shpere towed in Unimatrix 0, or when Voyager as well as the Delta Flier used a stoeln transwarp coil in Dark Frontier... of course Borg tech probably compensated, and actual transwarp speeds are different to tunneling through space with Transwarp conduits... but the Voth ate Voyager and then went into transwarp speed in Distant origin.
You're confusing infinite velocity with transwarp which are two entirely different things. The Borg don't travel at infinite velocity. If they did, they could have conquered the whole Universe by now.

Ah, whatever, the Salamander was an aborted evolutionary choice from yonks ago and not some future potential depending on the environment man choses to live in. unless of course the Salamanda is perfectly suited to live in Transwarp Space?
That's not even suggested in the ep. It has nothing to do with living in transwarp.

-Shawn :borg:
 
Well I feel smacked. My bottom is raw and red.

Having not seen the episode in a couple years I assumed the imbalance in Tom I remembered, was some sort of deadended evolutionary potential which was triggered by transwap space. My bad.

"Devolution" LightningStorm? Apart from Wang, I didn't see any monkeys this episode. And frell that was some righteous speech claiming how righteous everyone else is. How bad for everyone else. There but for the grace of god go I, y'know?

Shawn, they said several times that they were crossing the transwarp barrier in the episode to attain infinite speed. nice little entry about it in the encyclopedia too. However as I hypothesized, traveling at transwarp (infinite) speed, beyond warp 10, and using a transwarp conduit are very different methods of transport... But it's not inconceivable to consider they're a related technology, because as B'Elanna said it's merely a matter of figuring out how to navigate at infinite speed so as to control where they enter into normal space, which is perhaps what the "conduits" are for that the Borg use?
 
Guy Gardener said:
"Devolution" LightningStorm? Apart from Wang, I didn't see any monkeys this episode.

Yes, Devolution. This is a term quite frequently used with regard to what happened in this episode. Just because you specifically didn't use that exact term you did say that it was the opposite of evolution. The opposite of evolution is devolution.

As for "monkeys"... The theory of evolution doesn't say anything about humans evolving from monkeys. But more of a primitive version of ourselves that more resembled that of current day apes. So let's be clear, primitive man is NOT an "ape", "monkey", "chimpanzee" or any other modern-day low-order primate.

In the same respect, those primitive primates are quite complex, and some theories of evolution state that even they evolved from an even more primitive version of something, all the way back to single celled amoeba. But then, that's all theory.

Let's talk Trek, and what's been established in the Trek universe. All Good Things... Remember the part where Q took Picard to the past where he showed him the beginnings of life on Earth? And it was (for lack of a better description) a huge pond of slime? According to Trek humans came from that, so the "monkeys" as you called them would had to have themselves evolved from something else.

Guy Gardener said:
And frell that was some righteous speech claiming how righteous everyone else is. How bad for everyone else. There but for the grace of god go I, y'know?

People ARE arrogant when it comes to other species, and you go and change a human for what is perceived to be for the worse, it is that perception that clearly makes us arrogant in that regard.

And "everyone else"... WTF? I used the term "we" or "us" exactly 5 times in that last paragraph. There is no everyone else, it is ALL of us, all of humanity, me too. What separates some from others is the ability to at least recognize it.
 
I meant "everyoneelse" other than me. I'm not arrogant. I'm SUPERARROGANT.

As for "monkeys"... The theory of evolution doesn't say anything about humans evolving from monkeys. But more of a primitive version of ourselves that more resembled that of current day apes. So let's be clear, primitive man is NOT an "ape", "monkey", "chimpanzee" or any other modern-day low-order primate.

Yeah, that's pretty basic stuff. Although, you can't be saying that Wang is not a monkey? (It's been so long since I've done this, I forgot I like Wang, and loath Kim. yeah, Kim is the Monkey.)

How do you explain Barkley "devolving" into a bug?

Because if you really want to talk about the origins of man in the Star Trek Universe, then you have to bring up TNG: The Chase. Those flat faced aliens seeded their DNA across the stars, so man in Star Trek are really Aliens who can track back their legacy to a 5 billion year old culture who liked to ejaculate on barren planets, which is an ancestry commonly shared with most other Humanoid life in the galaxy.

By the opposite of evolution I did mean that Tom was changing despite an absence of environmental triggers, or that his change was triggered, misfired by the wrong environmental trigger so that he grew up into a life form unsuited to his environment because I wrongly believed, remembered wrong, that his enzyme imbalance mentioned in the beginning was a problem with a recessive gene.

After rewatching the show last night, and collecting the goodfacts I totally agree with you.
 
So .. you're saying every syllable uttered, every bit of blocking or reaction, every note of underscore, every effect (optical or live), every single tenth of a second was bad?

In fact I didn't say that, or even approach that level of condemnation. But I will say it now: Every single 1/59.94th of a second was bad. Threshold is not bad merely in its accidents, but in its substance, and its badness is fully and really present in its parts, right down to each video field.

Because that's what it has to be to be a zero. That means NOTHING. Not a single instant was any good at all.

It depends on your scale. If you mean absolute zero, then yes. If we place at an arbitrary non-absolute point in the continuum, then zero just means the positives equal the negatives. Of course, I didn't call it a zero, I called it, "ludicrous, boring, banal, and dull."

However, had I been in a mood to assign it some numerical rating, zero sounds like a fine choice.

Uh-huh ... and yet you seem to know the episode so well, you've obviously gagged through it more than once for some reason.

Assuming this is true, it only makes my opinion better informed.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top