Was Threshold really that bad?

[Delta1]

LightningStorm said:
As for "monkeys"... The theory of evolution doesn't say anything about humans evolving from monkeys. But more of a primitive version of ourselves that more resembled that of current day apes. So let's be clear, primitive man is NOT an "ape", "monkey", "chimpanzee" or any other modern-day low-order primate.

All men are apes. Citizendium: Ape; Tolweb: Hominidae

Only some men are Monkees. Wikipedia: The Monkees

As for the transformation into salamanders, I can only assume that the Voyager crew was gobsmacked and "evolution" was their best guess to answer an impossible question. It wasn't evolution by any modern understanding. As we understand it, evolution occurs within populations, not individuals. The idea of an individual undergoing "accelerated evolution" is nonsensical. The genetic variation that makes evolution possible in sexually-reproducing species occurs in gametes, not somatic cells. That variation is selected by environmental pressures, and the normal environment that existed on Voyager was wholly inconducive to Tom's transitional state. (Didn't he breathe methane at one point?) The triggering event, the transwarp flight, isn't reasonably connected to the idea of evolution, either. The only possible explanation for Tom's transformation is magic. Some interdimensional being was annoyed that a mortal was flitting about in infinity so he transformed said mortal into a salamander as punishment.

This might seem like science-nerd nitpicking, especially on a show with warp drives, transporters, and right-handed neutrinos. And maybe it is. But it would've been nice if Trek had gotten their concept of evolution closer to the mark than, say, Mrs. Garrison and her retard frog squirrel. Especially since--and I don't fault the writers for not predicting this--evolution has become something of an international hot button thanks to the likes of the Discovery Institute, Harun Yahya, etc.

 

[STIntergalactic]

Delta1 said:
(Didn't he breathe methane at one point?)

Actually, he breathed a mixture of nitrogen and acid dichloride gas.

I also just did a review of this episode if you care to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT55JveMjpM

 

[exodus]

Delta1 said:

LightningStorm said:
As for "monkeys"... The theory of evolution doesn't say anything about humans evolving from monkeys. But more of a primitive version of ourselves that more resembled that of current day apes. So let's be clear, primitive man is NOT an "ape", "monkey", "chimpanzee" or any other modern-day low-order primate.

All men are apes. Citizendium: Ape; Tolweb: Hominidae

Only some men are Monkees. Wikipedia: The Monkees

As for the transformation into salamanders, I can only assume that the Voyager crew was gobsmacked and "evolution" was their best guess to answer an impossible question. It wasn't evolution by any modern understanding. As we understand it, evolution occurs within populations, not individuals. The idea of an individual undergoing "accelerated evolution" is nonsensical. The genetic variation that makes evolution possible in sexually-reproducing species occurs in gametes, not somatic cells. That variation is selected by environmental pressures, and the normal environment that existed on Voyager was wholly inconducive to Tom's transitional state. (Didn't he breathe methane at one point?) The triggering event, the transwarp flight, isn't reasonably connected to the idea of evolution, either. The only possible explanation for Tom's transformation is magic. Some interdimensional being was annoyed that a mortal was flitting about in infinity so he transformed said mortal into a salamander as punishment.

This might seem like science-nerd nitpicking, especially on a show with warp drives, transporters, and right-handed neutrinos. And maybe it is. But it would've been nice if Trek had gotten their concept of evolution closer to the mark than, say, Mrs. Garrison and her retard frog squirrel. Especially since--and I don't fault the writers for not predicting this--evolution has become something of an international hot button thanks to the likes of the Discovery Institute, Harun Yahya, etc.

Dude, it's just fiction. It doesn't have to follow laws of actual science. However, if you want to question the actually science of it, scientific discoveries are taking place all the time in our day and age. Things we thought were absolute truth can change with every new discovery. What we know in modern science isn't what they know in 24th century science. They've got as far as curing genetic mutations and such things from cancer to the common cold, two things in modern times we have yet to understand and unlock.

Besides, hasn't the EMH proven time and again when it comes to medical diagnosis that he's always right? He's a living medical textbook of knowledge gathered from all the worlds of the Federation plus his gained knowledge of the Delta Q. It would be near impossable for him to be wrong.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

TimelessTrek said:
I liked Threshold. I thought it was an entertaining episode - it's not like it was "The Fight"!!!

Threshold was the worst hour of trek ever made by a wide margin.

The Fight was good though - if anything it was a failed execution of a good premise. Threshold is simple a catastrophic execution of a catastrophically bad premise.

 

[exodus]

WeAreTheBorg said:


Threshold was the worst hour of trek ever made by a wide margin.

I don't know, I think that offensive TNG ep. with the space Africans lusting after a White woman was far, far worse.

I think that hands down has to be the worse most offensive and embarrassing ep. in all Trek history. It's the one ep. everybody on the cast & crew are ashamed to talk about.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

exodus said:

WeAreTheBorg said:


Threshold was the worst hour of trek ever made by a wide margin.

I don't know, I think that offensive TNG ep. with the space Africans lusting after a White woman was far, far worse.

I think that hands down has to be the worse most offensive and embarrassing ep. in all Trek history. It's the one ep. everybody on the cast & crew are ashamed to talk about.

You're right, I tend to forget about TNG season 1 and 2 and TOS when considering bad trek.

What I should have said it that its the worst hour of modern trek, modern starting with TNG season 3.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
I don't know, I think that offensive TNG ep. with the space Africans lusting after a White woman was far, far worse.

I think that hands down has to be the worse most offensive and embarrassing ep. in all Trek history. It's the one ep. everybody on the cast & crew are ashamed to talk about.

I forgot that episode yea that was bad. Or when Wesley steps on the grass and goes to trial. Or the finale of season #1 with the space spider/crab thing and the exploding chest cavity which has to be one of the most disgusting in all of Trek. Or the root story with Riker where he has a series of flash back only because the writers guild went on strike at the end of the season so they needed a filler episode.

 

[DarthTom]

WeAreTheBorg said:

What I should have said it that its the worst hour of modern trek, modern starting with TNG season 3.

I thought of another variable, if you throw ST Nemesis into the proverbial pot to stir around, I think it beats Threshold as the worst overall.

 

[exodus]

WeAreTheBorg said:

exodus said:

WeAreTheBorg said:


Threshold was the worst hour of trek ever made by a wide margin.

I don't know, I think that offensive TNG ep. with the space Africans lusting after a White woman was far, far worse.

I think that hands down has to be the worse most offensive and embarrassing ep. in all Trek history. It's the one ep. everybody on the cast & crew are ashamed to talk about.

You're right, I tend to forget about TNG season 1 and 2 and TOS when considering bad trek.

What I should have said it that its the worst hour of modern trek, modern starting with TNG season 3.

Dude, no matter how hard I try, I can never forget that ep.

All that comes to mind thinking of that ep. is that guys big black lips covered in vaseline and I hear the words: "Oh, a White woman!!!!" in my head.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

WeAreTheBorg said:

What I should have said it that its the worst hour of modern trek, modern starting with TNG season 3.

I thought of another variable, if you throw ST Nemesis into the proverbial pot to stir around, I think it beats Threshold as the worst overall.

Yeah, considering if they waited a week, Shinzon would have been dead anyway. Not to mention, you mean to tell me in all the universe Picard has no equal but himself?

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:

Yeah, considering if they waited a week, Shinzon would have been dead anyway. Not to mention, you mean to tell me in all the universe Picard has no equal but himself?

Not a big Picard fan are ya? Neither am I. TNG wasted one of the greatest Stage actors abilities [with Stewart] on Picard's rigid personality and persona.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:

Yeah, considering if they waited a week, Shinzon would have been dead anyway. Not to mention, you mean to tell me in all the universe Picard has no equal but himself?

Not a big Picard fan are ya? Neither am I. TNG wasted one of the greatest Stage actors abilities [with Stewart] on Picard's rigid personality and persona.

No, I love Picard. His character actually inspired me to finally read Moby-Dick and rediscover good works of literature.

I just find Nemesis a big slap in the characters face. They treated this great man as if he were an imbecile.

 

[od0_ital]

Well, I think that's far enough off topic from VOY 'Threshold'.

I think y'all both know that there are other, more appropriate forums to discuss Patrick Stewart, Picard, TNG 'Code of Honor' and Star Trek: Nemesis.

 

[exodus]

Are you asking us to leave the Voyager forum?

 

[od0_ital]

^

No, just tryin' to be more productive 'round here.

If ya have anything more to ask, PM me.

 

[exodus]

You're kinda late.

 

[od0_ital]

^

exodus, you can PM me.

If ya continue off topic discussion in the thread, I'll close it.

 

[number6]

I didn't even know how hated this episode was until I started checking out Trek Message boards. There were far worse things on television than one rather silly and implausible Trek storyline. I think the hatred on this is a bit over the top.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Just like the warp scale was recalibrated between TOS and TNG, the venom scale was recalibrated for the later seasons of Voyager. I just don't think people who liked to hate still cared enough to complain about the stuff that came later on because it was just one piece of twaddle after another.

Threshold is practically a modern retelling of the ugly duckling.

But stories of forced evolution are rife through out science fiction, I recall a 70s episode of Dr Who where these space men where trying to control a mutation plague, people kept turning into monsters and then the monsters were killed immediately, because they weren't pretty... But it just turned out to be a transitional stage before they turned into Vorlons.

Ripping off Hans Christain Anderson again.

 

[Daedalus12]

Number6 said:
I didn't even know how hated this episode was until I started checking out Trek Message boards. There were far worse things on television than one rather silly and implausible Trek storyline. I think the hatred on this is a bit over the top.

I think the bashing is quite a bit over the top but don't interpret that as a sort of compliment to Voy and this particular episode. I've been rewatching Voyager in its entirety through the DVDs in hoping that somehow the series would make a better impression on me this time after a long period of hiatus in which I stayed away from it. I am afraid Voyager is still as bad as ever in my mind. IMO Threshold is just one speck of crap in the sewer known as Voyager. I don't think it deserved the bashing that it has gotten over tons of other shitty episodes that committed similar offenses such as gross indulgence in nonsensical technobabble solutions/phenomenons.