Was Sela pointless?

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Just a friendly reminder: Star Trek: Voyager is just a TV show for our entertainment at the end of the day. While "Fury" might be one of the official episodes of S6, I can understand and respect that some Voyager fans will wholeheartedly reject the episode. It was heated back in 2000, so I'm not surprised it's more so in 2024.

 

[Dukhat]

Because I don't recognize or admit anything in the pathetic excuse for a Star Trek series that PIC was.

...I have to state that I simply can't accept the destruction of Kes in that insulting s**t episode in Voyager's season six and that's it!

it's not delusion, it's common sense.

But according to your logic, I should consider Beverly Crusher to be Suspiria in disguise or an evil entity from another universe, based on your statement that PIC was a pathetic excuse for a Star Trek series, and that Crusher acted completely out of character and was a monster because she never told Picard that he had a son, or any of her closest friends from the Enterprise-D. Because I simply can't accept the destruction of Beverly in that insulting s**t series and that's it!

It's not delusion, it's common sense.

Right?

So do you think Beverly was Suspiria or an evil entity from another universe? I do, but nobody in their right mind will believe me. But I'm still right, of course. That's the only explanation as to why she acted out of character and was such a monster to Picard.

It's also my opinion that the s**t episode should be wiped out from all future DVDs, streaming channels and all future media because it was insulting and disgusting.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.

I have to disagree with you. It's not about "canon", it's all about doing what's right and refuse to accept crap and insults thrown at us.

In all seriousness, I never felt that 'Fury' was insulting. But that's because I don't have an irrational attachment to a fictional character.

 

[Dukhat]

I can't prove it definitely. This is just a theory, I must add, even if (for me, at least) a very plausible one. Not that she had to be affected by any outisde force. Well, other than her own powers. In SW, many people who fell to the Dark Soide (especially in Legends) did so on their own, not influenced by other Dark Siders. Bevcause falling to the Dark Side is letting your emotions run wild, to let your passions rule how are you acting, how are you using your powers. All she had to do is let her powers decide what she did... Without restrictions. No other influence is needed.

I must add, Kes's powers are based a lot on her connections to other beings, other things... And connecitons toi the very matter. Just like the Force.

Except this isn’t Star Wars, and there’s no Force, or anything remotely resembling it. Kes made it very clear that her perception was that the Voyager crew abandoned her. That might not actually be how things went down, but that’s what she believed. No ‘dark side of the force’ was making her think this. People feel abandoned all the time for irrational reasons.

Now if you want to see things from the perspective of the actual show, keep in mind that despite the actor acting like an adult, the character is only 6 or 7 years old, and is acting her age. And in that 6 year old’s mind, she thinks that her family abandoned her, and she hates them for it. It’s actually a great psychological metaphor once one gets past the irrational idea that the writers somehow ‘ruined’ the character.

 

[DonIago]

I thought it was possible that Old Kes was suffering from some form of dementia or other degenerative condition given her advanced age, but I don't think I ever considered the idea that her powers had corrupted her.

I also learned a long time ago that discussing Kes with Lynx is largely a pointless exercise for me, which is why I no longer engage with them. I'm willing to accept that they may mean some of the things they say to be humorously hyperbolic, but their posts don't make that clear to me, and I don't have the bandwidth to engage in such passionate discussion about a singular fictional character.

 

[Lynx]

But according to your logic, I should consider Beverly Crusher to be Suspiria in disguise or an evil entity from another universe, based on your statement that PIC was a pathetic excuse for a Star Trek series, and that Crusher acted completely out of character and was a monster because she never told Picard that he had a son, or any of her closest friends from the Enterprise-D. Because I simply can't accept the destruction of Beverly in that insulting s**t series and that's it!

It's not delusion, it's common sense.

Right?

So do you think Beverly was Suspiria or an evil entity from another universe? I do, but nobody in their right mind will believe me. But I'm still right, of course. That's the only explanation as to why she acted out of character and was such a monster to Picard.

I think that the events in PIC never took place because it's a crap series which never should have been made. The same for DSC and the NuTrek movies which mess up the Star Trek timeline.

Not to mention certain idiotic events in those series and movies, like the destruction of Vulcan and Romulus.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.

But it should happen. It would be the decent thing to do.

In all seriousness, I never felt that 'Fury' was insulting. But that's because I don't have an irrational attachment to a fictional character.

Irrational? Not at all!
I would call it logic and honest.

I think that the s**t episode in season six which was made to destroy Kes was carppy and insulting and I will continue to stand up for that. What you think about it is of no concern of mine.

 

[Dukhat]

I thought it was possible that Old Kes was suffering from some form of dementia or other degenerative condition given her advanced age...

That's another possibility, I suppose.

but I don't think I ever considered the idea that her powers had corrupted her.

And I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intent of the writers, or they would have made that clear.

I also learned a long time ago that discussing Kes with Lynx is largely a pointless exercise, which is why I no longer engage with them. I'm willing to accept that they may mean some of the things they say to be humorously hyperbolic, but their posts don't make that clear to me, and I don't have the bandwidth to engage in such passionate discussion about a singular fictional character.

 

[Dukhat]

I think that the events in PIC never took place because it's a crap series which never should have been made. The same for DSC and the NuTrek movies which mess up the Star Trek timeline.

Not to mention certain idiotic events in those series and movies, like the destruction of Vulcan and Romulus.

That's what you said before. It's irrelevant to the discussion and it still doesn't answer my question. But I see that I'm not going to get any rational discourse from you at this point, as DonIago rightly said.

But it should happen. It would be the decent thing to do.

I'm pretty sure nobody cares about this but you.

Irrational? Not at all!
I would call it logic and honest.

I think that the s**t episode in season six which was made to destroy Kes was carppy and insulting and I will continue to stand up for that.

Irrationality is having thoughts like this about a fictional character who hasn't been on screen in 25 years, while the actual real person who portrayed the character is receiving less empathy from you than the character she played despite having all kinds of personal and legal issues.

What you think about it is of no concern of mine.

Then don't post your thoughts on the matter if you don't want people to challenge your opinion. This is a Star Trek discussion group. If you don't want to have a discussion, make that clear next time and I'll just ignore you.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

As I explained before, Kes's powers are very similar to the Force. They both steam from the connections to other life. In "Cold Fired", Kes clearly demonstrated that. There may not be the "Will of the Force", but there's still the matter whatever you control yourself with these powers or let these powers control you.

 

[Dukhat]

As I explained before, Kes's powers are very similar to the Force. They both steam from the connections to other life. In "Cold Fired", Kes clearly demonstrated that. There may not be the "Will of the Force", but there's still the matter whatever you control yourself with these powers or let these powers control you.

I'm not going to rule out your hypothesis. However, because all of this is just make-believe, and for lack of any other concrete evidence, we have to rely on what the writer intended. If the writers intended for Kes to have been overwhelmed by her powers, then the script should have been clear on that. And it wasn't remotely clear. As opposed to, say, 'Warlord,' where Kes's mind was indeed taken over by an external force. Sure, we can rationalize what happened any way we want because as was aforementioned, it's all fiction. Even if Lynx wants to believe whatever outlandish theory they want, that's fine too, and I've been very clear about saying that they are entitled to their opinion, as are you. But the evidence as presented shows us that Kes was angry that she perceived that the crew abandoned her. Her powers seemed a secondary issue, relegated to just blowing up corridors and giving her the appearance of her younger self. It's all right there in the script and on screen.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Well, many Dark Side characters in SW also perceived that they are the ones that were wronged. That others were guilty, not them.

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil" Darth Vader said to Kenobi on Mustafar.

All it proves is that the writers didn't though much about the script. Which, honestly, is something in support of Lynx. Now, a denial that it's Kes may be a bit too much for most, but it's hard to deny that Kes changed a lot. And little explanation is given as to why. Hence is my "Dark Side" theory, which tries to explain it.

 

[Dukhat]

All it proves is that the writers didn't thought much about the script.

I don't think it proves that at all. I think the writers came up with an interesting story about how this alien who only lives nine years and is essentially a child in an old woman's body felt betrayed by her friends, even though that wasn't what the crew perceived to have happened, or that even happened at all other than what 6-year-old/possibly-dementia-ridden Kes perceived it as being. Anything analogous to 'the dark side of the Force' was not evident in the story.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

But in Before and After, it was established that forgetting starta at 9 years old... Not that it's good thing anyway. But it proves that the writers didn't even though of internal consistency.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

From "Was Sela pointless?" to "Fury" d

But in Before and After, it was established that forgetting starta at 9 years old... Not that it's good thing anyway. But it proves that the writers didn't even though of internal consistency.

In "Before and After," Kes stays in her prime until about 8 or 9, and "old age forgetfulness" doesn't kick in until age 9. In "Fury," she's old and forgetful at 6 or 7.

 

[Dukhat]

But in Before and After, it was established that forgetting starta at 9 years old... Not that it's good thing anyway. But it proves that the writers didn't even though of internal consistency.

In "Before and After," Kes stays in her prime until about 8 or 9, and "old age forgetfulness" doesn't kick in until age 9. In "Fury," she's old and forgetful at 6 or 7.

But the possible dementia was just a hypothesis made by DonIago. It was not evident in the episode. And ‘Before and After’ was an alternate timeline where Kes didn’t have to leave the ship early because she was worried her powers would endanger the crew. So I’m not sure how you’ve come to the conclusion that the writers didn’t think of internal consistency.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

We are making theories because the writers failed to provide a satisfactory explanation for such a drastic change in a character.

 

[DonIago]

I simply think we don't have the information we need to draw any substantive conclusions regarding what may have happened with or to Kes. AFAWK no other Ocampa ever experienced what she did. My "dementia or other degenerative condition" theory was just that, in an effort to explain how her mindset could have gotten from where we see her in "The Gift" to where she is in "Fury", which seems like a significant mental reframing of the events as they objectively occurred.

I also think this is woefully off-topic.

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe Sela was actually Suspiria too?

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

But the possible dementia was just a hypothesis made by DonIago. It was not evident in the episode. And ‘Before and After’ was an alternate timeline where Kes didn’t have to leave the ship early because she was worried her powers would endanger the crew. So I’m not sure how you’ve come to the conclusion that the writers didn’t think of internal consistency.

Oh, I was just citing the two episodes, not anyone here. In real life, it's probable that the writers of "Fury" just forgot about Kes's aging in "Before and After," in all honesty. If Kes is about 7 as she was probably already 1 when she met the Voyager crew, then she'd be equal to a woman in her 70's, and some people in their 70's are angry and bitter. So, it's entirely possible the idea behind the episode was that age just caught up with her and clouded her judgment.

 

[Lynx]

That's what you said before. It's irrelevant to the discussion and it still doesn't answer my question. But I see that I'm not going to get any rational discourse from you at this point, as DonIago rightly said.

You must understand that it's very difficult for me to answer to a question about an episode I haven't watched and have no intention to watch. I gave up on PIC a long time ago.

What did Beverly Crusher do? Was hse turned into some old hag and tried to kill Picard and the rest of the Enterprise crew? Was she restored back to normal at the end of the episode or was she still a crazt old hag who went away to marry Armus, the oily entity in TNG.s Skin Of Evil and live on his planet for the rest of her life?

To come up with an answer and a solution to the problem, I need details.

I'm pretty sure nobody cares about this but you.

Well, somebody has to do it. Not to mention that I know that many agree with me.

Irrationality is having thoughts like this about a fictional character who hasn't been on screen in 25 years, while the actual real person who portrayed the character is receiving less empathy from you than the character she played despite having all kinds of personal and legal issues.

Less empathy? Hardly.

As a matter of fact, I don't know Jennifer Lien and therefore I can't comment on her "personal and legal issues. I actually have expressed my support for her on some occasions. But I don't want to comment on things I don't know about, contrary to you who seem to come up with comments about things and situations you don't even know about.

When it comes to Kes, that's another story. She's a fictional character and I have knowledge about how the character was ruined. And since I happen to like the character, I can and will present my opinion about the whole thing without having to be lectured by some "holier than thou person" who don't like my posts and don't agree with me.

In fact, I seldom start a Kes debate, it's when she is brought up in a discussion about death of a character and character destruction I can do a comment about it because it's the worst character destruction ever in Star trek, maybe in any series.

However, I must admit that the ongoing "destructive trend" in Star Trek often makes me in a bad mood. It's not only about Kes, it's about other characters as well and even planets.

A sign of the times, I guess.

Then don't post your thoughts on the matter if you don't want people to challenge your opinion. This is a Star Trek discussion group. If you don't want to have a discussion, make that clear next time and I'll just ignore you.

My dear friend, since we live in a free society, I do have the right to discuss whatever I want as long as it's about some Star Trek issue. I also have the right to take the debate with those who have different opinions, in fact I like discussions as long as they are constructive and don't deteriate into some duel with personal attacks instead of discussing the subject.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, I have no further need to discuss this topic.