Was Sela pointless?

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

The Tasha Yar we saw in Yesterday's Enterprise was a Tasha from an alternate timeline. Not the Tasha from the first season.

And the Tasha we see in the end episode is also another Tasha.

As for Kes, I simply refuse to see the disgusting creature which showed up in that season six episode of Voyager, the worst ever episode in any TV series ever made, as the real Kes.

The monster was simply Suspiria in disguise or an evil entity from another universe.

Garak was still alive and well in the DS9 finale but some book author whose books I once used to like totally destroyed the character in one of her later creations.

As for Gowron, I actually like Martok but he's too friendly with Starfleet and the Federation to be a good Klingon Chancellor.

Gowron is much better and have more personality than any other possible Klingon leaders. Downright stupidity to waste such a character.

As for Jadzia, I wish they hadn't killed her off. She could have been transferred to the Enterprise and maybe showed up in some season 7 episode. Ezri could have been her sister or some other relative.

As for my opinions in those cases, I do stand up for my favorites.

Exactly!

#1 When it comes to time travel episodes, to me, people in an alternate timeline are just as "real" as people in the prime timeline. I guess it's all perspective and all that. I always saw Tasha in YE and ALG as original Tasha back because time travel, I never saw her as "another" Tasha.

#2 Can you explain your anger toward "Fury?" It's clearly a hot button, and there are episodes of TV shows I don't like. What's up? I hope I didn't open a can of worms and shake it all about.

#3 OK, so I was right about the finale. I don't follow the books, just the shows and movies.

#4 Well, I figured they did what they did with Martok replacing Gowron as Chanceller, because the show was ending, and Voyager was in the DQ. They were effectively done with the Klingon Empire for the time being.

#5 That's what Terry Farrell wanted, to step down to recurring. The story I remember is the suits thought she just wanted money, so she was fired and killed off. I think this could have been handled better. They could have killed her off so they could do Ezri Dax but kept Jadzia (Terry Farrell) around through the Dax symbiont to give Worf and the audience some closure.

 

[fireproof78]

Can you explain your anger toward "Fury?" It's clearly a hot button, and there are episodes of TV shows I don't like. What's up? I hope I didn't open a can of worms and shake it all about.

Can we please do that elsewhere? Lynx has a strong opinion on that. The passion is admirable if confusing at times.

Whatever happened to Kes?

Loved Kes in S1-3, loved her departure in "The Gift," evolving into an energy blob and sending Voyager 1/7 of the way home. "Fury" was fun, but that should have been a two-parter to give the store more time to work. Wasn't there talk of her being a recurring villain across S6? Anyway, at the end...

www.trekbbs.com

 

[Captain Tuvok]

I don't think she was pointless, but it was a huge missed opportunity for an even greater recurring character

 

[Lynx]

The answer to this question seems to be entirely dependent on personal opinion.

In my opinion, no. They haven't changed anything anymore than any of the pervious series.

Considering what has happened in the NuTrek movies and series like DSC and PIC, I don't know if I should feel reassured or worried by your comment.

You're welcome to believe that, but that's not who she was. It was the same Kes as she always was, only older and bitter.

No it wasn't!

That old evil monster had no resemblance at all to the real Kes who was nice and friendly and loved her friends on the ship and never could dream of doing them any harm.

Totally out of character for Kes to behave as the monster did.

#1 When it comes to time travel episodes, to me, people in an alternate timeline are just as "real" as people in the prime timeline. I guess it's all perspective and all that. I always saw Tasha in YE and ALG as original Tasha back because time travel, I never saw her as "another" Tasha.

I guess it depends on certain circumstances in the story. Anyway, it's a Tasha from another timeline or universe in the wrong place.

#2 Can you explain your anger toward "Fury?" It's clearly a hot button, and there are episodes of TV shows I don't like. What's up? I hope I didn't open a can of worms and shake it all about.

The can has been open for a long time so don't worry. Anyway, you sent me a personal message and I have replied to it.

#3 OK, so I was right about the finale. I don't follow the books, just the shows and movies.

Be happy for that in this case!

The really sad thing is that the author had written some good books about Cardassia, including characters like Rugal Pa'Dar and Garak before I discovered what had happened in a recent book. In fact, the day before I discovered the destruction, I wrote a post on the TrekLit page about how much i've liked some of the books and that they had "restored my faith and interest in Star Trek literature".

No wonder I felt like an idiot and got really upset the next day when I was searching for more books about Garak and found what I found on the Memory Beta site.

#4 Well, I figured they did what they did with Martok replacing Gowron as Chanceller, because the show was ending, and Voyager was in the DQ. They were effectively done with the Klingon Empire for the time being.

Yes, but considering the fact that the Klingons will always be main characters in upcoming Trek series or movies, it was a stupid thing to do since they had a great character in Gowron and a great actor in Robert O'Reilly who could have been used in future stories, series and movies.

Besides that, I'm getting tired of seeing my favorite characters being killed off, ruined and destroyed one by one.

#5 That's what Terry Farrell wanted, to step down to recurring. The story I remember is the suits thought she just wanted money, so she was fired and killed off. I think this could have been handled better. They could have killed her off so they could do Ezri Dax but kept Jadzia (Terry Farrell) around through the Dax symbiont to give Worf and the audience some closure.

Yes, it could have been handled better. They could have had Jadzia as a recurring character, if only for the end episode and have Ezri as her sister or other relative.

Can we please do that elsewhere? Lynx has a strong opinion on that. The passion is admirable if confusing at times.

Whatever happened to Kes?

Loved Kes in S1-3, loved her departure in "The Gift," evolving into an energy blob and sending Voyager 1/7 of the way home. "Fury" was fun, but that should have been a two-parter to give the store more time to work. Wasn't there talk of her being a recurring villain across S6? Anyway, at the end...

www.trekbbs.com

Confusing passion?

Hardly, my friend. The passion is as logic as a Vulcan. Not to mention fair and righteous too.
But I have explained the issue in a private message to Admiral Jean-Luc Picard.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

She's no more Kes than Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker. Omly in Star Wars, the whole point of it was that Vader was, in the end, redeemed. But there was no such thing for Kes (in canon, anyway).

And what I m,ean was the oldest Anakin, not the already falling Jedi knight Anakin.

 

[AntonyF]

As for Kes, I simply refuse to see the disgusting creature which showed up in that season six episode of Voyager, the worst ever episode in any TV series ever made, as the real Kes.

I get your anger. At the time I think I was furious and not complimentary about the writers.

To me it just seemed a petty, spiteful, and rather pointless inclusion for Kes and to resurrect her character arc to do that.

Now knowing how they fired Jennifer Lien it makes it worse... and what I think is particularly troublesome is they said that going 'dark' for example in characters like Warlord took a toll on Lien's health.

So what do they do - bring her back to do that.

I hated the episode at the time, and knowing all this it makes it particularly disturbing now.

 

[Dukhat]

No it wasn't!

That old evil monster had no resemblance at all to the real Kes who was nice and friendly and loved her friends on the ship and never could dream of doing them any harm.

Totally out of character for Kes to behave as the monster did.

Like I said, you're welcome to have that opinion. But that's all it is, an opinion. The intent of the people who wrote the script was that it was Kes. The other characters in the episode acknowledge that it was Kes. Every official publication writing about Kes acknowledges that it was Kes. As far as I know, every other person who has seen the episode, except for you, acknowledges that it was Kes. And this would not be the first time a fictional Star Trek character seemingly acts out of character. Because, you know, these are not real people. Beverly Crusher acts completely out of character in PIC, and nobody is thinking that she wasn't actually Beverly Crusher.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Like I said, you're welcome to have that opinion. But that's all it is, an opinion. The intent of the people who wrote the script was that it was Kes. The other characters in the episode acknowledge that it was Kes. Every official publication writing about Kes acknowledges that it was Kes. As far as I know, every other person who has seen the episode, except for you, acknowledges that it was Kes. And this would not be the first time a fictional Star Trek character seemingly acts out of character. Because, you know, these are not real people. Beverly Crusher acts completely out of character in PIC, and nobody is thinking that she wasn't actually Beverly Crusher.

Well, this is one thing I am not in full agreement on with Lynx. Yes, everyone is acknowladging this is Kes... And from there comes my theory that this Kes has fallen to the Dark Side (as if, let her powers and her dark emotions take control of her).

 

[Dukhat]

Well, this is one thing I am not in full agreement on with Lynx. Yes, everyone is acknowladging this is Kes... And from there comes my theory that this Kes has fallen to the Dark Side (as if, let her powers and her dark emotions take control of her).

But what 'dark side' would that be? The episode had no indication that Kes was acting under any influence other than her own.

 

[Lynx]

Like I said, you're welcome to have that opinion. But that's all it is, an opinion. The intent of the people who wrote the script was that it was Kes. The other characters in the episode acknowledge that it was Kes. Every official publication writing about Kes acknowledges that it was Kes. As far as I know, every other person who has seen the episode, except for you, acknowledges that it was Kes. And this would not be the first time a fictional Star Trek character seemingly acts out of character. Because, you know, these are not real people. Beverly Crusher acts completely out of character in PIC, and nobody is thinking that she wasn't actually Beverly Crusher.

When people's intent are eviltheir actions hurts or makes you angry and you simply can't accept it, then it's your duty to stand up against it.

I've always done that and I will continue to do that.

Do I care what "characters in that episode" who were written to react in a special way did?
No!

Do I care about what "official publications" made by people who bow and crawl for those who come up with that crap in that episode states?
No!

Do I care about what you call "every other person" who have seen this piece of crap thinks or might believe?
No!

Do I care about what the character Beverly Crusher did in that bad, dystopian crap series which was supposed to be a follow-up of the excellent TNG.
No!

I'm not one of those yes-sayers or nodding donkeys who just crawl bows and says "yes" when someone throw dirt in their faces. When things like that happens, I stand up against it.

I've always done that and will continue to do that, wether it's iabout Star Trek or about events in the "gray universe" were we live.

Therefore I sleep good at night too because I follow my conscience and stand up for what I believe is right.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

What I mean is, Kes let her own emotions control her. She let her bitterness, her anger (and possibly her jealousy) control her and her use of her powers, rather than controlling her emotions and her powers. She behaved like, because she had these powers, she was better than anyone else. So, she was behaving pretty much like a Dark Sides user in Star Wars. And Kes's powers (always, but especially there) are a lot of like Force sensitivity, both in results (telekinesis, telepathy, ability to influence weaker minds, ability to deflect similar powers (as shown in Persistence of Vision) and the reason (both steaming from the ability to connecting and manipulate bonds that keep the matter together (the Force in Star Wars and subatomic bonds in Kes)).

And the cure is the same: full control of one's emotions. In my fanfiction, post - Fury Kes was found by Ahsoka Tano, trained in the Jedi ways (she even made her own lightsaber) and eventually returned to the Voyager crew in this condition (and she also had her lifespan extended in the meantime). This is just a fanfiction, but it does pretty much reverse the damage to Kes while making her somewhat different.

And I still believe Kes would make a better Jedi then most Prequel Trilogy Jedi are (while also representing all Star Trek is about).

Both Darth Vader and Darth Sidious were technically under their own influence. And yet, Jedi stated that they were "consumed by the Dark Sides". They were clearly ruled by their own emotions. Ruled by their own passions. It's even clearer in Maul.

 

[fireproof78]

Like I said, you're welcome to have that opinion. But that's all it is, an opinion. The intent of the people who wrote the script was that it was Kes. The other characters in the episode acknowledge that it was Kes. Every official publication writing about Kes acknowledges that it was Kes. As far as I know, every other person who has seen the episode, except for you, acknowledges that it was Kes. And this would not be the first time a fictional Star Trek character seemingly acts out of character. Because, you know, these are not real people. Beverly Crusher acts completely out of character in PIC, and nobody is thinking that she wasn't actually Beverly Crusher.

Too rational.

 

[Dukhat]

When people's intent are eviltheir actions hurts or makes you angry and you simply can't accept it, then it's your duty to stand up against it.

I've always done that and I will continue to do that.

Do I care what "characters in that episode" who were written to react in a special way did?
No!

Do I care about what "official publications" made by people who bow and crawl for those who come up with that crap in that episode states?
No!

Do I care about what you call "every other person" who have seen this piece of crap thinks or might believe?
No!

Do I care about what the character Beverly Crusher did in that bad, dystopian crap series which was supposed to be a follow-up of the excellent TNG.
No!

I'm not one of those yes-sayers or nodding donkeys who just crawl bows and says "yes" when someone throw dirt in their faces. When things like that happens, I stand up against it.

I've always done that and will continue to do that, wether it's iabout Star Trek or about events in the "gray universe" were we live.

Therefore I sleep good at night too because I follow my conscience and stand up for what I believe is right.

And as I keep saying, you are entitled to your opinion.

However, I have to ask why you don’t think that Beverly Crusher in PIC was actually Suspiria.

 

[AntonyF]

I'm not one of those yes-sayers or nodding donkeys who just crawl bows and says "yes" when someone throw dirt in their faces. When things like that happens, I stand up against it.

I've always done that and will continue to do that, wether it's iabout Star Trek or about events in the "gray universe" were we live.

Therefore I sleep good at night too because I follow my conscience and stand up for what I believe is right.

There's a distinction between having independent thought and standing up for what you believe in, vs delusion. It was Kes. We may not like that story. We may choose to ignore it - like I don't personally consider Picard canon Trek. But those are just our opinions.

And not allowing yourself to consider a good person can do bad things, or become bad, or understand those motivations is denial.

I ain't gonna tell someone Picard isn't canon.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

But she was changed... drastically changed. If it is not falling to the Dark Side, or Star Trek's version of it, I don;t know what it is.

 

[at Quark's]

I don't like Fury at all.

But, as it is, I have no objective reason to doubt that it actually was meant to be Kes. As for her changed character, people can change through becoming embittered to a point beyond recognition, unfortunately. It has happened in the real world. Do I like it? Not at all. But unless I get some clear indication from canon material telling me 'it wasn't Kes, after all' (which I would be happy to accept) I'm not going to make up some random head canon that she wasn't.

As much as an utter disgrace Fury was to Voyager (and more in general, to Trek).

 

[Dukhat]

But she was changed... drastically changed. If it is not falling to the Dark Side, or Star Trek's version of it, I don;t know what it is.

If you can prove that she was influenced by an external force, I’m all ears.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

If you can prove that she was influenced by an external force, I’m all ears.

I can't prove it definitely. This is just a theory, I must add, even if (for me, at least) a very plausible one. Not that she had to be affected by any outisde force. Well, other than her own powers. In SW, many people who fell to the Dark Soide (especially in Legends) did so on their own, not influenced by other Dark Siders. Bevcause falling to the Dark Side is letting your emotions run wild, to let your passions rule how are you acting, how are you using your powers. All she had to do is let her powers decide what she did... Without restrictions. No other influence is needed.

I must add, Kes's powers are based a lot on her connections to other beings, other things... And connecitons toi the very matter. Just like the Force.

 

[Lynx]

And as I keep saying, you are entitled to your opinion.

However, I have to ask why you don’t think that Beverly Crusher in PIC was actually Suspiria.

Because I don't recognize or admit anything in the pathetic excuse for a Star Trek series that PIC was.

There's a distinction between having independent thought and standing up for what you believe in, vs delusion. It was Kes. We may not like that story. We may choose to ignore it - like I don't personally consider Picard canon Trek. But those are just our opinions.

And not allowing yourself to consider a good person can do bad things, or become bad, or understand those motivations is denial.

I ain't gonna tell someone Picard isn't canon.

I have to state that I simply can't accept the destruction of Kes in that insulting s**t episode in Voyager's season six and that's it!

it's not delusion, it's common sense.

In one of my stories, I have managed to "write over" the damage made to the character in the s**t episode and I can re-write it over and over again to prove the same thing if necessary.

It's also my opinion that the s**t episode should be wiped out from all future DVDs, streaming channels and all future media because it was insulting and disgusting.

As for PIC, it was terrible and should never have been made.

I don't like Fury at all.

But, as it is, I have no objective reason to doubt that it actually was meant to be Kes. As for her changed character, people can change through becoming embittered to a point beyond recognition, unfortunately. It has happened in the real world. Do I like it? Not at all. But unless I get some clear indication from canon material telling me 'it wasn't Kes, after all' (which I would be happy to accept) I'm not going to make up some random head canon that she wasn't.

As much as an utter disgrace Fury was to Voyager (and more in general, to Trek).

I have to disagree with you. It's not about "canon", it's all about doing what's right and refuse to accept crap and insults thrown at us.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't like Fury at all.

But, as it is, I have no objective reason to doubt that it actually was meant to be Kes. As for her changed character, people can change through becoming embittered to a point beyond recognition, unfortunately. It has happened in the real world. Do I like it? Not at all. But unless I get some clear indication from canon material telling me 'it wasn't Kes, after all' (which I would be happy to accept) I'm not going to make up some random head canon that she wasn't.

As much as an utter disgrace Fury was to Voyager (and more in general, to Trek).

This. It's a TV show. It's not owned by me, nor do I have any obligation to continue on. This is just something that sometimes happens. And, well, Trek has somehow survived supposed disgraces and ruinations of the brand many times over. I think we're ok here.