Who said he wasn't?
Was Riker incompetent?
- Thread starter Crazyewok
- Start date
Well, it's like this. Formally Riker has to carry the orders given to him be his captain. That's what an inquiry would say and they need to say that stuff to ensure that the chain of command is upheld and respected as the pivot point of any disciplined force.
But stopping this topic at a 100% Riker's fault doesn't quite do it justice either. Away from the legality of the CoC here, from a perspective of leadership styles, it really took two tangle here. I'd still attribute most of the blame to Riker for refusing to properly read and adjust to the command style of Jellico. But Jellico undoubtedly swept in too hot and gave his own unnecessary contribution to the subsequent bust up that almost threw the mission. It doesn't take two minutes to produce some rousing oratory across the intercom to inspire the crew. And whilst telling Troi to get out of her pajamas and get dressed is on point, telling her to get lost is not.
I wasn't judging Jellico. In fact I think he's a terrible captain. I am just saying that Riker failed his duty as first officer and that's independent of how I feel about anybody else.
If it had gone to a inquiry Riker at best would have got a black mark preventing him from ever getting above the rank of comander and transfered asigned for ever more to backwater irrelevant posts at worst court martialled and dishonourably discharged.
Jellioco at worst would have kept his rank and been quietly sent on a HR training course in tact and people management.
Pretty much.
Missed this, but an excellent summary. iirc Riker was relieved after a dispute w/ Jellico (behind closed doors) regarding Captain Picard, as is his prerogative as second officer. All this stuff about "refusing to follow orders" is a bizarre imagined reality that doesn't bear out in the actual show.
as everyone likes to use the more popular star trek novels as real fact... ill do the same. the original enterprise was a secret un commosioned test vessel for a minimum of 15 years before she was commissioned. that means she was almost 35 when kirk took command for the first time and damn near 50 when she crashed into Genesis.
Riker was not a fool, a looser, or a moron. He kept refusing his own command so many times because as I believe picard or troi or Jellico stated that he was to damned comfy on the D.
Riker was not a fool, a looser, or a moron. He kept refusing his own command so many times because as I believe picard or troi or Jellico stated that he was to damned comfy on the D.
locutus101 and Grakh, it is time for the pissing contest to stop. You two are basically trolling each other. Please drop it now.
The pakleds are an odd bunch. They're the dumbest thing you ever saw and yet they were able to steal all this technology and nearly got away with what they did to Geordi. Look at how long it took to fool them!
Personally I find that really hard to believe.
In real life, the imbeciles are the ones who get screwed all the time not the ones who keep tricking others into giving them stuff.
"Was Riker incompetent?"
... Of course not.
... Of course not.
Actually, it wasn't behind closed doors, it was in front of a subordinate, Troi. He popped off about Jellico dismissing the Picard issue, because he wanted Jellico to get Picard consideration as a P.O.W, which Jellico wasn't going to do, because it's a very bad idea, when there is no war yet, & so he got relieved.
Riker also speaks disparagingly about Jellico to another subordinate, earlier as well, Geordi. He makes his disgruntlement known amongst the crew. Riker unilaterally made the choice to withhold executing the captain's order to change shift rotation, because he believed it shouldn't be executed, & Riker's whole posture towards Jellico from the start was obstinate.(my opinion being because he thought Nechayev should've put him in charge)
Feel how you want about Jellico, but Riker is grossly insubordinate in this situation, & he gets away with it for a good long while, before the hammer comes down. lol
I don't think he would act the same, not Picard. Take a stand against a superior? Disobey an order? Absolutely. Probably not over something as menial as shift rotation though. lol More like violating treaties, arming factions, infringing civil liberties, placing the ship & crew in imminent & immediate danger etc... You know, real objections, and in the case of wanting to rescue Picard, as a matter of protocol, he was just wrong. It was a bad call
"I'm not suggesting we trade entire star systems for 1 man's life..." Yeah, you kind of are, Billy. Declaring him a P.O.W would be acknowledging a state of war, & mouthing off at your captain about it gets you relieved. I'd have relieved him too. However, if a shuttle had happened to go missing, shortly thereafter, I might not have reported that right away.
Why the hell didn't Will go all Jim Kirk TSFS on this situation? If you really stand by your choice to break rules & save the man, you don't stop at getting your wrists slapped, & spend the rest of the ride pouting in your quarters, you go for broke. You back that shit up. At least THAT type of defiance I could respect, win or lose.
Last edited:
Jellico was basically telling him to let it go, and there's no way Picard would stand for that either. After all he does risk war for crew members in the series. He would try every angle possible. The only difference is Picard would try to convince him with some moral speech and Riker isn't that kind of conversationalist.
Exactly! In for a penny, in for a pound on that one.
Thing is when Kirk went rogue in SFS
He did it takeing full responsibility and disavowing starfleet.
So did chakotay in voyger when he went rogue and off to find seska.
Riker expected starfleet to back him.
Riker should of gone off on his own but made it plan he was not acting under starfleet and takeing full responsibility so if caught the federation had some way out of full out war.
