Was Riker incompetent?

[locutus101]

So you're saying Picard runs a crappy ship.

Not exactly, I am saying that if Picard was given that mission. He would have needed his crew to obey without delays and work double shifts and all that. And Riker would have probably done so too. Not because of his competence as a first officer, but because of his lack of professionalism, which makes him incapable of obeying an order regardless of whom is giving it.

It's easy to maintain discipline when things are normal. The real challenge is to do so when things are tough.

 

[USS Firefly]

So you're saying Picard runs a crappy ship.

I don't think that, but they were not ready for war, that's why they need Jellico.
To prepare for a potencially war with the Cardassians.

 

[locutus101]

I don't think that, but they were not ready for war, that's why they need Jellico.
To prepare for a potencially war with the Cardassians.

Exactly, in times of war, things are tough. You can't have the luxury of discussing orders, let alone disobeying them.

 

[Ghrakh]

Not exactly, I am saying that if Picard was given that mission. He would have needed his crew to obey without delays and work double shifts and all that. And Riker would have probably done so too. Not because of his competence as a first officer, but because of his lack of professionalism, which makes him incapable of obeying an order regardless of whom is giving it.

It's easy to maintain discipline when things are normal. The real challenge is to do so when things are tough.

"incapable of obeying an order "? You're just making up crap now.
"The real challenge is to do so when things are tough." Like confronting the Borg?

I don't think that, but they were not ready for war, that's why they need Jellico.
To prepare for a potencially war with the Cardassians.

I thought Jellico was assigned because a) Picard was sent away on a mission and b) Jellico was supposedly an expert at dealing with Cardassians. But perhaps I watched a different version of Chain of Command.

 

[Crazyewok]

If the crew were too comfortable, lazy, or whatever then that reflects on Picard. Just logical, huh? Out with the bad Captain, in with Captain "Badass". Crew morale is irrelevant.

Riker and crew dealt with the Borg and now suddenly they're not prepared to deal with Cardassians? Jellico just came in and upended the ship, such as that whole shift rotation thing. Was this shown to have any tactical advantage over how it was before?


Wesley hate is sooooo last week. I believe next week a revisit to Pulaski hate is scheduled so you'll have to wait for the next cycle.

Shift rotation is purely captains discretion.

It is irrelevant what the last captain did. If Jellico wants to change it is 100% his prerogative to do so.

It is a lawfull order and though Riker has the right to politely discuss it in private, he is still obliged to carry out that order.


Only circumstance Riker should refuse a order is if it clearly illegal. Even then its debatable if he should actively work to stop that order as that would be mutiny.

 

[Ghrakh]

he is still obliged to carry out that order.

Riker got it done, but did Jellico state a deadline for this? All I know is that Jellico wasn't happy it wasn't done immediately.

 

[locutus101]

"incapable of obeying an order "? You're just making up crap now.
....

NO, you're distorting what I said. Let's quote it as it should be:

I said: "Incapable of obeying an order regardless of whom is giving it."

The latter part is indispensable to get the meaning of the ensemble.

I hope you'll get it this time.

 

[Ghrakh]

^that doesn't change anything. Stop with the pretend-arguing.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Starfleet's appointment of Jelico had no bearing on their confidence in Picard to wage war. They were not at war with the Cardassians and Picard pretty much single handedly prevented the Romulans from starting one. Starfleet's appointment of Jelico had more to do with his experience with the Cardassians.

I don't remember why Riker was relieved of duty in Chain of Command. I don't remember him refusing to follow orders, so much as just questioning Jelico's judgment. I don't remember if he did it behind closed doors or not, because supporting the Captain in front of the crew then debating him behind closed doors has always been what the first officer's job basically is in Trek.

Jelico's not a better war captain than Picard, he's just a more aggressive negotiator who will give less up in exchange for peace. Hell, Picard was the sole voice of entering the Klingon civil war in Redemption with all of Starfleet arguing against him.

 

[locutus101]

Riker got it done, but did Jellico state a deadline for this? All I know is that Jellico wasn't happy it wasn't done immediately.

And he was right. The order should have been obeyed IMMEDIATELY, ASAP, not next week, not next month; illico presto,capisce?

 

[USS Firefly]

"incapable of obeying an order "? You're just making up crap now.
"The real challenge is to do so when things are tough." Like confronting the Borg?


I thought Jellico was assigned because a) Picard was sent away on a mission and b) Jellico was supposedly an expert at dealing with Cardassians. But perhaps I watched a different version of Chain of Command.

I haven't seen Chains of command for a long time so I could be wrong.
But Jellico was right in the end about the Cardassians, and that they were hiding in the nebula?

 

[Ghrakh]

And he was right. The order should have been obeyed IMMEDIATELY, ASAP, not next week, not next month; illico presto,capisce?

It wasn't "next week" or "next month". You're sinking into hyperbole.

 

[locutus101]

^that doesn't change anything. Stop with the pretend-arguing.

You're getting close to being insulting. I'd advise you to stop.

The second part of the sentence changes everything. It's called a modifier. Maybe you've heard of them. They're meant to change the meaning of a word or an expression.

 

[Crazyewok]

So you're saying Picard runs a crappy ship.

Its irrelevant how picard ran his at the time former ship.

It was Jellico ship. Doesnt matter if his comand style was better or worse, what the captain says goes and the only words out of Rikers mouth once Jellico gives a order should be "yes sir".

 

[locutus101]

It wasn't "next week" or "next month". You're sinking into hyperbole.

Maybe I need to given that you seem unable to get the point otherwise. Riker delayed his response to an order and frustrated Jellico needlessly, complicating his task.

 

[locutus101]

Its irrelevant how picard ran his at the time former ship.

It was Jellico ship. Doesnt matter if his comand style was better or worse, what the captain says goes and the only words out of Rikers mouth once Jellico gives a order should be "yes sir".

Exactly!

 

[Crazyewok]

Riker got it done, but did Jellico state a deadline for this? All I know is that Jellico wasn't happy it wasn't done immediately.

A order should be carried out as soon as its given.

If it cant be then Riker was obliged to deligate it or tell the captain as soon as possible he needs more time, not sit on it until the captain asks again.

A shift rotation change could have at least been worked on and st in motion so when Jellico asks riker could say "its not implemented yet but its being worked on and should be done by (insert time here) sir"

 

[Ghrakh]

I haven't seen Chains of command for a long time so I could be wrong.
But Jellico was right in the end about the Cardassians, and that they were hiding in the nebula?

Oh he was right, and handled the Cardassians very well I think.

But apparently it's not about that. It's about how Riker and crew were "lazy" and "not following orders" and how the ship was "unprepared". Hey, that shift rotation, that's the ticket. That fixed the luxury cruise ship, at least until Picard returned.

Maybe I need to given that you seem unable to get the point otherwise. Riker delayed his response to an order and frustrated Jellico needlessly, complicating his task.

But...but:

First, I am not a Jellico fan.

 

[locutus101]

A order should be carried out as soon as its given.

If it cant be then Riker was obliged to deligate it or tell the captain as soon as possible he needs more time, not sit on it until the captain asks again.

A shift rotation change could have at least been worked on and st in motion so when Jellico asks riker could say "its not implemented yet but its being worked on and should be done by (insert time here) sir"

It seems that Riker has had free rein for too long.

 

[Crazyewok]

Oh he was right, and handled the Cardassians very well I think.

But apparently it's not about that. It's about how Riker and crew were "lazy" and "not following orders" and how the ship was "unprepared". Hey, that shift rotation, that's the ticket. That fixed the luxury cruise ship, at least until Picard returned.



But...but:

You dont ha e to like Jellico to defend his rights as a captain.

The saying goes , you respect the rank not the person.

Jellico was the Captain. Whether you think his comand style was good or bad he had the finaly authority. Only person he awnsers to are the Starfleet admirals who awnser to the federation President and council.