Was riker forced

[T'Girl]

I don't mind the instrumental version that plays at the end of each episode but the version from the opening credits sounds like a Christian Rock ballad.

I would say more soft Folk, than Christian rock.

It made the series seem dated even more than the recycled storylines.

What were they thinking not bringing in the Beastie Boys?

+

 

[Nebusj]

What were they thinking not bringing in the Beastie Boys?

I'd be up for them with some Buggles-era Yes sounds myself.

 

[T'Arwen]

T'Arwen, you bring up some very good points, actually. And I will do my best to answer them ...

First, I really hate to bring this up, because I do understand what you're getting at, but

Spoiler

the Leia angle can't and doesn't apply, here. It's like comparing T'Pol to T'Lar and they're both the same species in the same franchise, without having any other similarities, at all. Leia's just a tough, old bird in TFA, having had a life and a half. By the time we catch up with her, she's about had enough of all of that. T'Pol, on the other hand is still young, beautiful and her emotions, quasi-suppressed though they may be, are very near the surface. I would argue that T'Pol's more in touch with her feelings than Leia is. Much more so.

But yes, as a stand-alone episode, T'Pol could've been shown to be properly Vulcan, in a way she hadn't been before. Other characters break character in TATV, the same could've been done with T'Pol, but again ... she's a young woman in a TV episode and her (current, in this argument) boyfriend burns to death on the same ship she's on. She simply can't be expected to be a sage, old general. So, yes ... T'Pol's coping with this trauma would've overtaxed the episode, when what's really shown to be at stake, here, is Riker's decision regarding Pegasus.

TATV is a solid episode, in that it's straightforward, for one thing. Troi suggests Riker find diversion in a specific holodeck story to help put him at ease with the decision he knows he is going to have to make. The holodeck story is secondary to that, of course, but it, too, is straightforward. A kidnapping leads to the death of a main character. In between, there's adventure and drama and comedic moments and it all ties together in a neat bow at the end.

Yes, characters are required to respond in ways we know they wouldn't, at times, during the course of the story, but this is by no means new to STAR TREK. Very successful movies and TV shows within the franchise have done exactly that with their characters. I'm not dismissive of the fact that it takes some of the fun out of it, when you're a fan, but none of this adversely affected the events within TATV. It had a beginning, a middle and an end and it was interesting to watch.

You make a good point about

Spoiler

Leia, but I wouldn't go as far as to call her sage. She's a lot more like Anakin than Padme. But I'm very sure that Leia had a good relationship with Bail and Breha, even though we don't know much of how they raised her. And that's why she's in a lot more control of her emotions than most people. T'Pol's strict upbringing made things worse for her. We know her mom isn't the most understanding person in the world. Home implies she was close to her dad but when he died, she had no one but her sehlat to confide in. So T'Pol might know how to suppress her emotions but she has no clue how to deal with them because she's so isolated. In this way at least, she has more in common with Anakin.

But on Riker's decision, we'll have to agree to disagree. In 6th grade, most of what we did was learning conflict, rising action and other parts of the plot pyramid. We read short stories, analyzed how they fit the structure and wrote our own stories based on what we learned. This isn't hard stuff so by your standards, any 6th grader who went to a school that didn't suck can write a solid story. There are so many plot holes within the holonovel (the lack of security and that everyone but Archer/T'Pol can't give two shits about Trip's death), so I don't know if I would call it straighforward. There were some glaring ones in Terra Prime but people generally forgive those because other parts of the episode were well done. I'm going to sound like a broken record but I still have NO IDEA how watching Trip's death helped Riker. And I didn't even watch The Pegasus (many complained it was inconsistent with TATV). How can I take his problem seriously with he has time to ask holo-Malcolm about his personal life? He was behaving more like an office gossip than someone ruminating over a decision. The whole thing still falls apart even if you believe that Shran is a dumb gangster and Trip is a hick who never went to college. You're way too focused on the what of a story at the expense of the how. Just because it checks all the boxes of the plot pyramid doesn't make it a decent story.

 

[maneth]

I'd like to forget TATV if I could... Even Riker can't save that stinker, and I'm a big fan of Riker.

 

[T'Girl]

As a personal opinion, I would have liked Enterprise's final scene to have been like in TOS and TNG, with the ship heading off towards it's next assignment/adventure. The series wouldn't have had an officially ending, but instead it's left open.

I'm not opposed to major characters being "killed off," but if Trip was to die better it would have been done at least three or four episodes before the finale. It would have provided some time to have the characters deal with it, and we could have had the replacement arrive (but not out of nowhere) showing that life does go on.

The jump into the future was mishandled, over the years the crew should have moved around, we should have heard of other ship assignments, marriages, families, being promoted, some leaving the service,

+

 

[suarezguy]

It's kind of interesting that Trip already did die, in a pretty quick and routine if not forced way, in "Similitude" and that was a popular episode (although there his death and trying to bring him back was more of the focus of the episode).

 

[Avro Arrow]

I think TATV would have sucked without Trip's death, just not as badly. There still would have been the issue of sidelining the main characters for Riker and Troi. Most of the ENT people were sooooooo OOC (especially Trip and Shran). And they ignored what happened in previous episodes, most notably when Archer lectures T'Pol on how she never trusted Andorians. I wonder how you can say it was a solid episode when they changed who the characters were to make the plot work (or not).

Also,

Spoiler

the argument that being together with Trip would have made T'Pol's grief overwhelming doesn't hold water when you look at Star Wars. Leia had reconciled with Han before he died but she didn't lose her cool even when she felt it through the Force.

I like this post a lot... for the first paragraph. Could've done without the unexpected, open spoiler for

Spoiler

(what I can only guess is) The Force Awakens in a completely unrelated thread. Still waiting for the blu-ray.

Guess I'm done with this thread till early April.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

My apologies for not putting the spoilers behind spoiler tags sooner. (Computer problems, alas.) It hurts me as much as it has you, Avro Arrow and others who stumbled upon them unawares.

Reminder to all: NO UNTAGGED SPOILERS for any new movie or TV episode for 6 months after it first opens or airs, in consideration to those who have not seen it and don't wish to be spoiled--including your humble moderator, who has not seen the new Star Wars flick yet and is really pissed right now. The only reason heads aren't rolling is because I couldn't get here immediately after all the spoilery talk began.

We have a Star Wars forum with spoiler threads for those of you who want to talk about that film. No more here, please.

 

[T'Arwen]

Wasn't my intention to piss anyone off. I assumed everyone saw Star Wars after 3 months.

 

[dregj]

it's a pretty safe assumption

Spoiler

poor han [/spoiler

 

[2takesfrakes]

... on Riker's decision, we'll have to agree to disagree. In 6th grade, most of what we did was learning conflict, rising action and other parts of the plot pyramid. We read short stories, analyzed how they fit the structure and wrote our own stories based on what we learned. This isn't hard stuff so by your standards, any 6th grader who went to a school that didn't suck can write a solid story. There are so many plot holes within the holonovel (the lack of security and that everyone but Archer/T'Pol can't give two shits about Trip's death), so I don't know if I would call it straighforward. There were some glaring ones in Terra Prime but people generally forgive those because other parts of the episode were well done. I'm going to sound like a broken record but I still have NO IDEA how watching Trip's death helped Riker. And I didn't even watch The Pegasus (many complained it was inconsistent with TATV). How can I take his problem seriously with he has time to ask holo-Malcolm about his personal life? He was behaving more like an office gossip than someone ruminating over a decision. The whole thing still falls apart even if you believe that Shran is a dumb gangster and Trip is a hick who never went to college. You're way too focused on the what of a story at the expense of the how. Just because it checks all the boxes of the plot pyramid doesn't make it a decent story.

I, too, will be more mindful regarding 'spoilers,' in the future.

Now, to the business at hand:

I wouldn't exactly say that I was "too" focused on the "what" instead of the "how" regarding the story of These Are the Voyages. Trip's death in this episode is needlesome.- quite - as was the fate of his romance with T'Pol, which I've already stated. But Riker's being helped by this holodeck adventure is only logical from the standpoint that, like so many other things in STAR TREK .... "it's in the script." How are George & Gracie talking to the Whale Probe in the late 20th Century, without so much as radio technology? Because ... it's in the script.

There are endless examples of this throughout the franchise. Some things you just have to accept on ... wait, what's the term, they used to use in literature? I'm trying to remember ... something like, "giving the writer his 'head.'" I know there's an unintended sexual connotation in that, but that's the expression, basically saying, "just go with what they're writing/saying/showing to get on with the fun of it."

Deanna Troi loves Will Riker, for one thing, so she's going to do what's best for him on that front, alone. What's more, it's her job, as a 24th Century counselor to know The Human Condition in ways that no mere 21st Century audience can understand. In both capacities, she's advising this Man in crisis to do this thing.

It's like searching for the Holy Grail. Why can't one just find Eternal Life by praying for it, what the hell's with the cup? Why the props? Let's just cut through the bullshit and go right to the source and get some dealing done. It makes no sense, whatsoever ... this cup does nothing, by itself. Same thing, here. The holodeck is taking Riker over the rainbow ... wheresoever he has to go to find what he's questing and he's not being given it in a normal way, anymore than drinking from a particularly storied cup is going to give you what you want in a normal way.

This emphasis on the logic pertaining to the holodeck is really unnecessary. It's just part and parcel of a fairytale. I'm not denying that TATV could've been written countless other, more logical. true to Life ways and perhaps it should've done. But it wasn't necessary. It was never necessary to do so, is all I was saying.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

dregj, what part of "no untagged spoilers until the film has been out for 6 months" did you not understand???

NO. UNTAGGED. SPOILERS. The next clown who does it gets a warning.

 

[dregj]

dregj, what part of "no untagged spoilers until the film has been out for 6 months" did you not understand???

NO. UNTAGGED. SPOILERS. The next clown who does it gets a warning.

sorry about that
don't know how to tag.. anything

 

[T'Arwen]

It's like searching for the Holy Grail. Why can't one just find Eternal Life by praying for it, what the hell's with the cup? Why the props? Let's just cut through the bullshit and go right to the source and get some dealing done. It makes no sense, whatsoever ... this cup does nothing, by itself. Same thing, here. The holodeck is taking Riker over the rainbow ... wheresoever he has to go to find what he's questing and he's not being given it in a normal way, anymore than drinking from a particularly storied cup is going to give you what you want in a normal way.

I don't see the parallels between the Holy Grail and holodeck program. The most important difference is that the HG works by divine power or magic depending on your perspective. Berman and Braga may have intended a few things that didn't come across to the audience but I doubt they meant for the holodeck to be a magical dues ex machina for Riker. Without seeing any parallels to his decision and whatever the hell Trip did, the story was so anticlimactic. One of the posts on this page mentions several ways TATV kills the dramatic tension better than I could. Also, I find it interesting you can suspend you disbelief that the holonovel was a big help for Riker but you couldn't do it for Syrran the Sehlat Whisperer.
http://www.thedelphicexpanse.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4319

Also, if you're dying and you drink from the Holy Grail, you're cured of the problem. Presto, done. It requires no brainpower to do so. You don't even have to feed yourself the water (as was the case in Indiana Jones). Making a decision requires you to THINK. Riker got to play chef, soldier and do a lot of other stuff that didn't involve his dilemma. I felt like he was rewarded for slacking off.

This emphasis on the logic pertaining to the holodeck is really unnecessary. It's just part and parcel of a fairytale. I'm not denying that TATV could've been written countless other, more logical. true to Life ways and perhaps it should've done. But it wasn't necessary. It was never necessary to do so, is all I was saying.

That's probably where you differ from most fans. As time went on, I thought more of how many parts of the story were not logical. I didn't think much about the line of Trip not going to college at first. But as I had a roommate who was an engineering major and some experience taking parts of the CPA, that line felt more wrong. That's why TATV is the only bad TV that made me more angry over time. Also, unlike Star Wars, people don't associate Trek with fairytales. If they really tried to put in that kind of element (which I don't believe they did), of course that would go over most of our heads.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

sorry about that
don't know how to tag.. anything

Attend:
[ spoiler ] the info you want to hide behind spoiler tags [ /spoiler ] <-- delete the spaces inside the brackets

When done correctly without those extra spaces, you get:

Spoiler

the info you want to hide behind spoiler tags

Now go forth and spoil no more.

And if you don't know how to do something, just ask. My PM box is always open.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I've posted my deepest thoughts and feelings about STAR TREK's output elsewhere, but never on thedelphicexpanse.com! As a matter of fact, I was completely faithful to the boards of startrek.com, until they shut. Then, I tried some site called starbase something or other for a couple of months, but it had kind of died out, by the time I got there. That's when trekbbs.com became blessed by The Miracle of 2takesfrakes ...

The Sehlat Whisperer might not have appealed to me, if I came across one elsewhere, though ... unless she had big knockers. I don't recall, either way. But I tell you true, good sir ... it's all in fun! Yes, Roddenberry was very clear on not wanting STAR TREK to incorporate "fantasy" elements. One example of this is in STAR TREK 5, when Gene put the kibosh on Shat's desire to have Sybok and his Men riding on unicorns. The irony of which is that the transporter is fantasy. Telekinesis is fantasy. Telepathy is fantasy. The holodeck is fantasy. The only difference between these elements and "fantasy" is that they're Roddenberry approved ... and that is all. And if only what was realistically possible appeared in STAR TREK, we'd never have this franchise to love and be entertained by.

But be assured that I happen to agree with you, completely, that there's no logic to Riker's visit to the holodeck. I've never contested that fact. And as you point out, I'm probably in the minority, in that my enjoyment of TATV is not affected by that fact. I don't know what else to add to that, except that I do sympathise with ENT fans who feel that this episode reduced the regular cast to guest stars and made it a TNG episode. A better balance should've been struck, certainly. Now, I must ask, out of my own curiosity, as an adult ... are you Family Man, is that why you've selected your particular avatar? It's most unusual.

 

[T'Arwen]

I wasn't saying anything of you contesting the lack of logic over the holonovel. I was just saying that to comparing it to going over the rainbow and the Holy Grail is false equivalence. Of course we would lack many of the greatest stories if only the realistic appeared. The stories I'm most obsessed with have fantasy elements, like Star Wars and Middle Earth. But magic doesn't allow Harry Potter to do whatever he wants. The emotions in these stories are realistic. The rules of those fictional universes must be consistent. In other words, a degree of logic is necessary, whether you got a fantasy story or not. Of course, we'll never agree on how much but a magic cup and something that's supposed to help with a decision have are completely different things.

The Sehlat Whisperer comes from what you said about Syrran (without naming him) the Vulcan arc in the best season thread. I personally found that more logically than most of TATV.

As for the avatar, I'm a single female but I picked it because it was unusual. I'm a proud ENT and Trip/T'Pol fan and jumped on the chance to show it when I got enough points to get an avatar. You can find it, and many other good ones, here.
http://www.freewebs.com/kevin_thomas_riley/index.htm

 

[2takesfrakes]

Well, then ... thanks for the link, ma'am! Perhaps I, too, should collect all of the avatars I've created and used and then post them on a personal site? STAR TREK fans would surely be grateful - and appreciative - of my efforts ... especially those of Chris Pine! In the meantime, I happened to like Syrran from the episode "The Forge" and found his interpretation of Vulcans to be the most in keeping with the classic series. I was disappointed with the performance that was given for Surak, who was played as a kindly, old grandfather, rather than a stoic advocate of non-emotion. Surak was a little too Human, but Syrran was great. And when he chased off that sehlat with his exact imitation of its howling, yes it was jarring, I must say. And you're right, I can overlook flaws and inconsistencies in some areas, but in others, I bristle with annoyance. I offer no excuse ...

But I will offer a small spin on These Are The Voyages which could've helped matters. As the chef on Enterprise, for example, Riker's conversation with Reed could've taken a very different turn, had he talked with him about his divided loyalties when Phlox was captured by the Klingons. It's already been established that everyone went to the chef with intimate issues of deep, psychological import and they all had an opportunity to reminisce about past episodes that might be relevant, here. Instead, Riker's conversations with the NX-01 crew were just an excuse to interact with everybody. But it would've solved the "logic" problem in Troi sending Riker to the holodeck. Oh, well ... whatcha gonna do? You know? What can you do ....

 

[T'Arwen]

I agree that Reed's situation fits in a lot more with Riker's (which was previously mentioned on the Delphic Expanse). But the idea that people went to Chef with their personal issues came out of nowhere. Before TATV, it was always Phlox who played counselor. Now in that alternate universe, there needs to be a substitute if Phlox was kidnapped. But there was nothing established about Chef being counselor.

 

[Michael]

I don't mind the instrumental version that plays at the end of each episode but the version from the opening credits sounds like a Christian Rock ballad.

Do you mean “Archer's Theme”, because that was a wholly different composition from the title song. And yes, I liked it, too. But then again, I also kind of liked “Faith of the Heart”.