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Was pretty excited for this show.. but ultimately underwhelmed...

Look, as I’ve always said about any show, there should never be so big a divide among fans that we have to throw shade on those that enjoy something we don’t.

I think DS9 is the best Trek, always have, but if you don’t think so, that’s fine.

On the point of Picard though I mean, again if you enjoy it, power to you, HOWEVER... And this is a dangerous thing to say, I think it is objectively bad as a Star Trek show and objectively bad in general as a TV Show.

It’s so broken, so completely disrespectful to the source material and especially Picards character, it’s story is an uninteresting mess, it’s characters are boring or plain unlikeable and its interpretation of the Star Trek universe was just wrong IMHO.

ANd now only that but they flat out lied to us, that it was gonna be an in depth look at Picards character etc.

Nonsense, Picard was sidelined as a bumbling fool who never had any idea what was going on.

I dunno, I could go on for hours and hours about just how much I hate what this thing was, but for me, a single episode like The First Duty, Drumhead or Best of Both Worlds, many individual moments in those episodes are far more interesting and memorable than ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING that happened in Picard.

It feels like two different showrunners were in charge, one for the first half and one for the second. They didn't work well together at all. The whole AI superbeings taking over the galaxy was so generic and lame.

I have a lot of problems with the show but characters aren't one of them. I think Rios and Raffi are great, miles better than anyone on Discovery. Agnes Jurati (what a stupid name) can be ok, till she goes all weepy and sad. Seven is obviously great but could do with being a tad more light-hearted.
 
Or, instead of perpetuating such a broad circle of blame and recrimination, everyone tries to forgive and move on.

This. One of the supporting themes of Star Trek: Picard is the necessity of learning to break the cycle of violence and retribution, of learning to accept that being punitive is not actually justice. The Coppelians' and Zhat Vash's mutual fear of each-other produced the very behaviors from the other that each feared; the Federation's refusal to let go of the pain inflicted upon them by the Romulan government in the past lead to their passively allowing billions of innocent civilians to die. Star Trek: Picard is very much about the idea of restorative instead of retributive justice.
 
I think some profound forgiveness would be great, but that's different than just showing up on the ship at the end ready for another adventure like nothing happened. Makes it seem like kinda didnt happen and hit the reset button. We'll see what happens in season 2.

Star Trek: Picard is very much about the idea of restorative instead of retributive justice.

I dont know I mean Seven of Nine's part of the plot was straight up revenge and we haven't really seen what the federation is going to do after learning who caused the utopia planitia attack.
 
It feels like two different showrunners were in charge, one for the first half and one for the second. They didn't work well together at all. The whole AI superbeings taking over the galaxy was so generic and lame.

I have a lot of problems with the show but characters aren't one of them. I think Rios and Raffi are great, miles better than anyone on Discovery. Agnes Jurati (what a stupid name) can be ok, till she goes all weepy and sad. Seven is obviously great but could do with being a tad more light-hearted.

I have nothing to base this on other than what I know about casting roles, but I’d bet good money that Agnes Jurati was envisioned as an Indian/Pakistani character, but when Alison Pill got the role, they didn’t bother to rename the character (i.e. in ‘Saved by the Bell,’ the characters of Lisa Turtle and A.C. Slater were supposed to be Jewish and white, respectively, but when a black actress and a Latino actor were cast, they also didn’t bother to change the characters’ names.)
 
I have nothing to base this on other than what I know about casting roles, but I’d bet good money that Agnes Jurati was envisioned as an Indian/Pakistani character, but when Alison Pill got the role, they didn’t bother to rename the character (i.e. in ‘Saved by the Bell,’ the characters of Lisa Turtle and A.C. Slater were supposed to be Jewish and white, respectively, but when a black actress and a Latino actor were cast, they also didn’t bother to change the characters’ names.)

Seems likely. They should have bothered to change the name to go along with it.

If that's true I'm surprised they didn't cast an Indian actress, they never seem to miss an opportunity for a diversity choice. Maybe talent won out and Allison Pill was the best choice.
 
Seems likely. They should have bothered to change the name to go along with it.

If that's true I'm surprised they didn't cast an Indian actress, they never seem to miss an opportunity for a diversity choice. Maybe talent won out and Allison Pill was the best choice.

I’m guessing they envisioned Jurati to be a lot older than Pill’s age too, since the age difference between her and Maddox seemed quite extreme.
 
I dont know I mean Seven of Nine's part of the plot was straight up revenge and we haven't really seen what the federation is going to do after learning who caused the utopia planitia attack.
Why would we see any of this at this point? O_o

Unless I'm misreading this post is that it feels like a complaint that we don't know the consequences for a a story that hasn't released the next chapter.
 
Ah not really intended to be a complaint I just have a different take on the show than Sci's point and I'm hoping it goes into it on season 2
 
Ah not really intended to be a complaint I just have a different take on the show than Sci's point and I'm hoping it goes into it on season 2
I'm expecting it to go in to it in Season 2. I have no issue with how the show ended, largely because the consequences are yet to come.

But, the idea of you box someone up and rehab them to cure them is very much concerning to me. You want people to get better and develop empathy you have to model to it to them. I know I'm beating a dead horse here but why wouldn't Picard be the perfect teacher for that?
 
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I dont know I mean Seven of Nine's part of the plot was straight up revenge

And I don't necessarily think PIC as a narrative endorsed her choice.

I’m guessing they envisioned Jurati to be a lot older than Pill’s age too, since the age difference between her and Maddox seemed quite extreme.

Yeah, given that Jurati and Maddux were engaged before he disappeared in 2385, Jurati needs to be older than Allison Pill. Pill is 34, and if Jurati were the same age in 2399, that means she would have been engaged to marry a middle-aged man when she was 20, which is... well, it's not impossible, but it's problematic as all hell. I'd guestimate Jurati is supposed to be at least ten years older than Pill.
 
This is a series where people date androids, humans marry aliens which much different life spans and shift through time.

An age difference is what is considered problematic? O_o
 
This is a series where people date androids, humans marry aliens which much different life spans and shift through time.

An age difference is what is considered problematic? O_o

Dahj’s boyfriend didn’t know she was an android, and for that matter, neither did Dahj.
 
Indeed. Good point.

And I repeat-an age difference is problematic? :wtf:

Re: Bruce Maddox’s age: He was in charge of Starfleet Academy admissions in 2341. That was 58 years before PIC. For argument’s sake, let’s say he was 25 when he had that job. That would make him 83 years old when the 30-something Jurati was engaged to him (assuming that the engagement was the same year that she offed him in 2399.) While technically no, there’s nothing inherently wrong with this, I simply don’t think the writers intended the age difference to be that extreme in this instance.
 
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Re: Bruce Maddox’s age: He was in charge of Starfleet Academy admissions in 2341. That was 58 years before PIC. For argument’s sake, let’s say he was 25 when he had that job. That would make him 83 years old when the 30-something Jurati was engaged to him (assuming that the engagement was the same year that she offed him in 2399.) While technically no, there’s nothing inherently wrong with this, I simply don’t think the writers intended the age difference to be that extreme in this instance.
No, probably not.
 
It’s so broken, so completely disrespectful to the source material and especially Picards character,

It is absolutely not disrespectful to the source material. It may not portray Picard as the unironic white savior figure TNG portrayed him as, but PIC is never anything except respectful of the shows that came before it even when it's being deconstructionist. In particular, PIC grounds all the major conflicts in the most important relationships and conflicts of Picard's life on TNG.

its interpretation of the Star Trek universe was just wrong IMHO.

What does that mean?

ANd now only that but they flat out lied to us, that it was gonna be an in depth look at Picards character etc.

It was. Just check out the "Checking your privilege" thread for a discussion on how PIC delved into the complexities of Picard's personality, both the good and the bad.

Nonsense, Picard was sidelined as a bumbling fool who never had any idea what was going on.

Picard is literally the only guy wise enough to realize that there's a problem and saves the day through the power of compassion and diplomacy. He sometimes makes mistakes, but at no point is he bumbling or a fool.

This is a series where people date androids, humans marry aliens which much different life spans and shift through time.

An age difference is what is considered problematic? O_o

It's not the age difference per se. It's the fact that if Jurati is Pill's real-life age (34) in 2399, that means she would have been born in 2365 (during TNG Season Two) and been engaged to marry a man old enough to be her grandfather when she was 20.

I'm sorry, but there is no way a 20-year-old has the kind of self-knowledge, life experience, and personal empowerment for that to ever be appropriate. Almost nobody at the age of 20 has it together yet. There's an inherent and significant power differential between someone who's barely out of high school and someone who's been running their own life for decades, between a full adult and someone who is too young to know who they are yet.

Like, if Jurati had even just been five years older, I wouldn't consider it as much of a problem. It would be weird and I'd be cautious, but a 25-year-old generally knows who they are better than a 20-year-old. All years in a person's life are not created equally, and those five years between 20 and 25 are important years. But 20? No way man.

Re: Bruce Maddox’s age: He was in charge of Starfleet Academy admissions in 2341. That was 58 years before PIC. For argument’s sake, let’s say he was 25 when he had that job. That would make him 83 years old when the 30-something Jurati was engaged to him (assuming that the engagement was the same year that she offed him in 2399.)

Good catch about Maddox's age in 2341! I think your math is a bit off though. If Maddox was 25 in 2341, then he would have been born in 2316. Maddox and Jurati were engaged to be married in 2385 before he disappeared; in 2385, he would have been 69 years old, and 84 when Jurati killed him.

Still, a 69-year-old dating a 20-year-old is pretty extreme...!

I simply don’t think the writers intended the age difference to be that extreme in this instance.

Definitely agree. That's why I figure Jurati has to be at least ten years older than Allison Pill in real life. It feels more plausible to me that a 30-year-old woman might date a man in his 60s than a 20-year-old. (I mean, honestly neither seems particularly plausible to me, but Hollywood often matches older men with women young enough to be their daughters, so I'm grading on a curve.)

ETA:

Side-note: If Jurati is 34 in 2399, that means she was born in 2365 during TNG Season Two. That means she literally could have been born while Maddox was going after Data during "The Measure of a Man."
 
I'm sorry, but there is no way a 20-year-old has the kind of self-knowledge, life experience, and personal empowerment for that to ever be appropriate. Almost nobody at the age of 20 has it together yet. There's an inherent and significant power differential between someone who's barely out of high school and someone who's been running their own life for decades, between a full adult and someone who is too young to know who they are yet.
Fair point. Though, I remain amused by this as the line too far.
 
Good catch about Maddox's age in 2341! I think your math is a bit off though. If Maddox was 25 in 2341, then he would have been born in 2316. Maddox and Jurati were engaged to be married in 2385 before he disappeared; in 2385, he would have been 69 years old, and 84 when Jurati killed him.

Still, a 69-year-old dating a 20-year-old is pretty extreme...!

My hypothesis that Maddox was 25 when he held the admissions job at Starfleet Academy was just a guess. He could have been even older for all I know. If Starfleet is a four-year institution where the cadet ages range from 18 to 22, I'm not even sure that such a prestigious job of determining whether people are fit to be Starfleet cadets would have been given to someone who was only 25 and out of the Academy himself for only just a few years. I suppose we'd need to know how old Maddox was during Measure of a Man.
 
Fair point. Though, I remain amused by this as the line too far.

I mean, show me a 20-year-old mature enough to marry a 69-year-old without it being kind of abusive, and I'll pay you every dollar in my wallet (all three of them!). ;)

Also, yeah, it's just weird. She certainly doesn't look 20 in the video recording of her and Maddox. She looks like she's in her 30s in 2385. Hence why I figure Jurati is at minimum 44 and just happens to still look like she's in her 30s.

My hypothesis that Maddox was 25 when he held the admissions job at Starfleet Academy was just a guess. He could have been even older for all I know. If Starfleet is a four-year institution where the cadet ages range from 18 to 22, I'm not even sure that such a prestigious job of determining whether people are fit to be Starfleet cadets would have been given to someone who was only 25 and out of the Academy himself for only just a few years. I suppose we'd need to know how old Maddox was during Measure of a Man.

Well, IIRC, "The Measure of a Man" does not say he was determining admissions himself, but that was on a committee that was consulted to determine whether Data should enter. I can plausibly imagine a 25-year-old robotics genius being given a seat on that committee for applicants wishing to specialize in the sciences, but I can't imagine it for anyone younger than 25. So I'd say we're both guestimating that Maddox's lowest possible year of birth is 2316, but that he could be older.
 
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