Was pretty excited for this show.. but ultimately underwhelmed...
- Thread starter Dar70
- Start date
If Soji is a foreign leader then what she did is like threaten to destroy all organics with a super weapon. We've seen how the federation deals with threats like with the mutagenic one in Chain of Command.
She knew Riker and their daughter and others who had been nothing but kind to her and still had to convince herself not to destroy them.
She should definitely be in a rehabilitation facility or something.
She knew Riker and their daughter and others who had been nothing but kind to her and still had to convince herself not to destroy them.
She should definitely be in a rehabilitation facility or something.
I have yet to see a rehabilitation facility in Trek that actually worked.
I think learning from Picard is a better program.
I think learning from Picard is a better program.
I find myself needing a rewatch. I was distracted a bit by other things going on in my life at the time, and watch two or three episodes in parts. I really should get back to it.
We have had a couple of characters come out of them and be OK, but it's not clear that the facilities had anything to do with that.
No, what she did was summon a possible ally to defend herself and her people from a credible threat of genocide. And she had every reason to believe that the Federation would allow her people to be genocided, given the UFP's treatment of synthetics and of the Romulans.
They neutralized the threat and then did not do anything to harm any Cardassians after that point, nor did they make any attempt to "rehabilitate" any Cardassians.
That precedent applies to PIC insofar as Picard already persuaded Soji to take a leap of faith in him and in the Federation by terminating the summons. Her leap of faith was rewarded when the Federation showed that it had grown past its passive allowance of mass death when the fleet showed up to deter the Tal Shiar. So the Federation is no longer in any danger.
She knew four things: 1) that a Tal Shiar fleet was bearing down on her and her people; 2) that the Federation had banned synthetic lifeforms like herself; 3) that the Federation had a history of standing by and allowing massive numbers of innocent people to die (Romulus); and 4) that the Admonition-Makers might protect her and her people.
Picard also knows something you are overlooking: That in spite of their advanced intelligence, in some ways the Coppelian Androids are akin to children in terms of the maturity of their cognition and understanding of how to relate to others. Picard realized that, like children, you have to give them the chance to make mistakes without condemning them -- and you have to show them love in order to build trust.
1) The Federation has absolutely no right whatsoever to imprison a foreign leader.
2) Trying to control her would just prove that you cannot be trusted not to oppress her and her people. It would merely re-create the marginalization dynamic.
ETA:
You want "rehabilitation?" Soji and Picard entering into a consensual familial relationship, assuming the roles of ersatz grandfather and granddaughter, is her rehabilitation. And Picard's rehabilitation. And the Federation's rehabilitation, too.
It wasn't just a defensive move though, it was worlds exploding and she knew it. Worlds and worlds that had nothing to do with the Federation's decisions to ban synths. That would be like Picard blowing up innocent planets to take down a borg cube attacking Earth. I guess I could see an evil admiral doing that, and he would be escorted off to the brig at the end of the story.
If we go with the children comparison, it's not a good idea to let a child play with fire.
The federation is still in extreme danger. Any android that has a bone to pick and learns of the admonition can essentially open the gate and destroy everything. Not acting on that threat is about a million times more idealistic than not destroying the crystalline entity. The show itself kinda just ignores the entire thing by continuing like it was no big deal. After learning of what they almost did, they kind of have more reason to ban them than before.
I mean I get what they're going for but if they just continue in s2 like she didnt just nearly kill everybody, then it's weird.
If we go with the children comparison, it's not a good idea to let a child play with fire.
The federation is still in extreme danger. Any android that has a bone to pick and learns of the admonition can essentially open the gate and destroy everything. Not acting on that threat is about a million times more idealistic than not destroying the crystalline entity. The show itself kinda just ignores the entire thing by continuing like it was no big deal. After learning of what they almost did, they kind of have more reason to ban them than before.
I mean I get what they're going for but if they just continue in s2 like she didnt just nearly kill everybody, then it's weird.
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I don't see why they should ban them. It is the same thing with Species 8472.
Did she know it? Did she think that maybe she could put the genie back in the bottle? Did she perhaps think that she could talk the Admonition-Makers out of worse? Did she perhaps think that the idea the Admonition-Makers would necessarily be genocidal towards all organics might have been unreliable information from Sutra?
Or, more basically: Is it really reasonable to demand that someone facing imminent genocide not be prepared to genocide others in the name of their own safety? Is it not reasonable to think that perhaps people facing that kind of horrible, impossible situation might make choices they later realize were wrong and regret?
You're jumping to a lot of conclusions based upon too little evidence.
And maybe the children will willingly surrender the matches if they know the adults won't abuse them.
No, it is not.
You're just looking for an excuse to be hostile.
Soji's conversation with Picard kind of spelled it out , saying she had some plan B to prevent the admonitions results isn't really supported by the show. She was already trying to dissuade her guilt there.
Picard wouldn't even genocide the borg and they were the ones about to wipe out humanity. No way would he even consider genociding other uninvolved worlds to save humanity
Picard wouldn't even genocide the borg and they were the ones about to wipe out humanity. No way would he even consider genociding other uninvolved worlds to save humanity
Sure -- but Picard is a moral leader in the way the vast majority of people are not.
So becuase Picard wouldn't no one else would? O_o
Picard represents how all people will respond at all times?
Picard is not a copy now.
You know this is a short description of a sophisticated technobabble process, right? The term "map" can be interpreted in different ways, "scan, map and transfer" probably just means that his consciousness and memories had to be identified and isolated first before the actual transfer could happen. No character says Picard has been copied, duplicated or whatever, no one treats him as a copy. But the final nails in your claim's coffin are the statements from the creators of the show:
The "Admonition" promises protection from (hostile) organics, not their total annihilation. The exploding worlds are obviously the result of their own actions.
You know this is a short description of a sophisticated technobabble process, right? The term "map" can be interpreted in different ways, "scan, map and transfer" probably just means that his consciousness and memories had to be identified and isolated first before the actual transfer could happen. No character says Picard has been copied, duplicated or whatever, no one treats him as a copy. But the final nails in your claim's coffin are the statements from the creators of the show:
https://trekmovie.com/2020/04/02/st...losophical-fan-debate-is-picard-still-picard/
The "Admonition" promises protection from (hostile) organics, not their total annihilation. The exploding worlds are obviously the result of their own actions.
Admonition said:
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Could be the case, but Picard and Soji don't interpret it that way when she's debating the decision
Look, as I’ve always said about any show, there should never be so big a divide among fans that we have to throw shade on those that enjoy something we don’t.
I think DS9 is the best Trek, always have, but if you don’t think so, that’s fine.
On the point of Picard though I mean, again if you enjoy it, power to you, HOWEVER... And this is a dangerous thing to say, I think it is objectively bad as a Star Trek show and objectively bad in general as a TV Show.
It’s so broken, so completely disrespectful to the source material and especially Picards character, it’s story is an uninteresting mess, it’s characters are boring or plain unlikeable and its interpretation of the Star Trek universe was just wrong IMHO.
ANd now only that but they flat out lied to us, that it was gonna be an in depth look at Picards character etc.
Nonsense, Picard was sidelined as a bumbling fool who never had any idea what was going on.
I dunno, I could go on for hours and hours about just how much I hate what this thing was, but for me, a single episode like The First Duty, Drumhead or Best of Both Worlds, many individual moments in those episodes are far more interesting and memorable than ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING that happened in Picard.
I think DS9 is the best Trek, always have, but if you don’t think so, that’s fine.
On the point of Picard though I mean, again if you enjoy it, power to you, HOWEVER... And this is a dangerous thing to say, I think it is objectively bad as a Star Trek show and objectively bad in general as a TV Show.
It’s so broken, so completely disrespectful to the source material and especially Picards character, it’s story is an uninteresting mess, it’s characters are boring or plain unlikeable and its interpretation of the Star Trek universe was just wrong IMHO.
ANd now only that but they flat out lied to us, that it was gonna be an in depth look at Picards character etc.
Nonsense, Picard was sidelined as a bumbling fool who never had any idea what was going on.
I dunno, I could go on for hours and hours about just how much I hate what this thing was, but for me, a single episode like The First Duty, Drumhead or Best of Both Worlds, many individual moments in those episodes are far more interesting and memorable than ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING that happened in Picard.
How so?
Like, I get not liking the story, or not liking how the story progressed. Personally, I did not care for the Borg.
However, I disagree that the show didn't explore Picard, because I think it did so. I think it highlighted his strengths and his weaknesses, and his willingness to put it all on the line.
Is it perfect? No. Is it interesting? For me, yes. IDIC.
Im not saying everyone would be like Picard but when they do make the wrong choice, then they should face consequences. Those in the federation responsible for the synth ban, romulans that took out utopia planitia, and also Soji for almost unleashing it on everyone.
I think Soji learning from Picard is an appropriate consequence.
I am hopeful that Season 2 will explore some of these consequences in some form.
Or, instead of perpetuating such a broad circle of blame and recrimination, everyone tries to forgive and move on.
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