Was Lwaxana a Good Mother?

[TribbleFeeder]

This got tense quickly.

It’s a good question and I don’t think OP has even said anything that ill against her.

She was self absorbed and kind of a mess. Don’t get me wrong, I love her and she’s one of my favorites, but I definitely think she was kind of all over the place as a mom.

That doesn’t make her a bad mom, she loved Deanna dearly, but she certainly seemed all over the place. I think it’s a warrented discussion, especially when the child seems to have it more together than the parent. Deanna was so strong and emotionally stable, Lwaxana kind of struggled there.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Dude, this isn't as serious as all that. It's not like I'm in here saying they should've taken Lwaxana's children away from her, or provoking some kind of fitness hearing. It's a simple question of whether people think she was a good mother. A person's opinion of whether they themselves would want her as a mother is relevant to that... & I even admitted to being on the fence about that part too

I'm not seeing how you took my OP so radically. It's just a casual conversation about what kind of mom people thought she was. Her character gets talked about a lot for being a lot of things, but the motherhood aspect isn't delved into much (At least that I've seen anyway)

Mojochi, pardon my phrasing as my attempt to be brief may have communicated an abrasive or stern tone that certainly wasn't my intent. Pretty much my point was what Donlago said (much better and more effectively):

I see your point that G. may have overreacted but "Is X a good mother/father?" is a fairly loaded question and does raise the specter of questions along the lines of "should they have been allowed to raise children", so... That may not have been what you intended, but I do feel you sort of opened the door for it.

To which you replied:

Honestly I wouldn't have ever thought to consider it that way, in a TNG context. I truthfully don't think there's sufficient cause to suggest any of the TNG characters were so bad at parenting that their right to be a parent should be taken away. That includes Worf (as bad at it as he was) Even Riker's dad seems like he wasn't all that great, but not THAT bad

Respectfully, that is demonstrably inaccurate. Worf and Kyle Riker both illustrated instances of questionably parenting. Worf's have already been discussed and Kyle's initiating physical combat with his young son, William, and cheating to boot at least provides a reasonable basis to question his parenting (to name just one example). Deanna has never even insinuated any type of abuse.

So certainly that wouldn't be my thoughts about Lwaxana, & mostly I was hoping for a conversation that might explore what about her could've been improved, or about why those things that needed improvement might have been understandable in her case, as a widowed woman who'd already lost a child

Fair enough, but it is not the question you asked. "Was Lwaxanna a good mother?" Is "loaded" especially when you contextualized it with the recent discussion regarding Worf's parenting. Like discussing John Wayne Gacy and on the heels of that I say, "So now Mojochi, let's talk about your dad?" Because of the context you are going ask what the heck does one have to do with the other? And you'd be right to take a bit of offense within that example.

Again, a better question, as it seems more to your stated point: "Would you want Lwaxana as your mother?" No insinuations are made and it invites conversation. You could even add a poll to it.

To my appreciation, a lot of that has come out in this thread. I guess my mistake was in the topic title's wording, which I blindly only thought to use as a way to echo the similar Worf topic, which BTW, isn't necessarily a call to remove him as a parent either. It's just a little criticism. Ultimately, people can get real touchy if the subject of criticism is parenting. It's a singular taboo we enforce socially, as if criticizing someone as a parent equates to suggesting they oughtn't be one. It really doesn't though imho

Disagree. And you seem to be trying to have things both ways. On one hand you double-down with "Yes, I used the title to link it to the Worf discussion" and on the the other hand, "No, it was not my intent to call into question Lwaxana's parenting" when the quality of his parenting was most certainly the thrust of the discussion!

Interestingly enough, there's been 4 pages of Worf's thread, & no one has gotten the idea that that thread was intended to suggest he shouldn't be allowed to be a father, just in what ways he could've been a better one

Name one instance either shown or mentioned that speaks to Lwaxana being an abusive parent? We can with Worf. We can with Kyle Riker.

Lwaxana has never been anything but true to her heritage, loving and supportive with respects to Deanna. I agree that she is often maddening, however, if the situation unfolded I would not hesitate to have her raise a child of mine. I can't say the same about Worf or Big Daddy Riker based on either testimony or action.

 

[Mojochi]

Well, pushing her into a fixed marriage against her wishes seems rather an unpleasant relationship, or goading her about a lack of relationships etc... Plus, it's pretty apparent a burden that Deanna must be the more mature one. Is it the same as Worf & the Rikers? No. I'd never say it was. Each case is its own discussion. As I said, I don't think even the Worf topic was specifically a call to decry his abusiveness, or unworthiness. That people have gone there is its own development

I'm not trying to link the Worf discussion with this one. I was inspired to make it "On the heels" of that one, yes, but it's a different discussion, because it's a different character, that I'd hoped we'd explore the same aspect of... differently. I apologize if it is being taken in some way as a suggestion that she is somehow unworthy of being a parent. It's not a hearing. It's a conversation that would hopefully explore the positive & negative aspects OF her parenting & her personality as it bears on parenting

Again, a better question, as it seems more to your stated point: "Would you want Lwaxana as your mother?" No insinuations are made and it invites conversation. You could even add a poll to it.

But look, if you ask that & the answer is no, then the reason is because you think she's not a good example at it... not good to have as a mother. Contrarily, if you would, it's because you think she'd be good to have as a mother. So it's just mincing words, on the same issue... "Good Mother?" … It's the same question with different window dressing, dude.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Personally I lean toward not wanting her as a mom. Too much drama. Any mom whose daughter has to be the mature one is questionable imho

Upon reexamination of the second half of your initial post, I would now, respectfully, take issue with your use of the word "mature." How was Lwaxana immature? She is 100% Betazoid and, as far as we know, a fully normal one. Her culture is an open and uninhibited one by human standards yet she still will make accommodations and compromises onboard the Enterprise. That demonstrates a high level of understanding and maturity. She doesn't, for example, beam up and walk around naked. She will speak openly rather than telepathically to Deanna when requested.

Does she conform totally? No, nor do I believe that to be rationale expectation furthermore to hold it against her is rather xenophobic. Lwaxana conforms yet stays true to herself and isn't that one of the lessons we should all strive to learn? To bend yet not break.

Why would anyone demand an individual pretend to be that which they are not and then condemn them for not being "mature" when they don't cave to peer pressure. I would counter with, "Would you want Deanna as a daughter?" Despite being raised in an environment of unconditional love and support, Deanna, is still too immature not to be embarrassed by her mother. I mean really, Deanna, is like so seventh grade! Like totally.

 

[TribbleFeeder]

Lwaxana did not know how to maturely react to a situation or the wishes of others. On multiple occasions.

 

[Mojochi]

Upon reexamination of the second half of your initial post, I would now, respectfully, take issue with your use of the word "mature." How was Lwaxana immature?

I haven't really said she was immature per say, just less mature, but I wouldn't argue against it being said of her either. I'll just quote my previous comment about it

Announcing alleged salaciousness in someone else's mind, like she does with just about any man she wants to make squirm? Butting in on Worf's parenting? (However bad it was), belittling her daughter about her life choices? Causing scenes etc... I mean what's it say if you still call your adult daughter "Little one"? I suppose we're meant to take it as endearing, but I think we're also meant to take it as slightly demeaning, which it is

Unlike @Sisko_is_my_captain, I don't necessarily view her butting into Worf's parenting as appropriate. It ain't even any of her business. I also left out her whole rather entitled aristocratic demeanor, which really doesn't serve a healthy relationship well at all either. She self-aggrandizes, causes scenes, butts in where she doesn't belong, demeans people, embarrasses people... routinely

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Well, pushing her into a fixed marriage against her wishes seems rather an unpleasant relationship, or goading her about a lack of relationships etc...

That is actually wrong (and a painful stretch too) as those are matters of culture and heritage. Worf instructing Alexander on the rites and traditions of Klingon culture and hold him the Klingon standard of behavior, even when it goes against human culture and norms, is not the negative you make it out to be. Again, you are imposing xenophobic standards. It is natural to want your children to follow their cultural norms.

Now, if Lwaxana disowned Deanna perhaps you'd have a case, however, she didn't. She still gave her daughter room to be her own person and continued to love her unconditionally.

Plus, it's pretty apparent a burden that Deanna must be the more mature one.

Your claim that Deanna is the "mature" one is a highly debatable one. A point I do, in fact, contest. Deanna's inability to extend to her mother, Lwaxana, that which she demands be afforded her is a practical definition of "immature."

Is it the same as Worf & the Rikers? No. I'd never say it was. I'm not trying to link the Worf discussion with this one.

Again, you keep trying to have it both ways. See previous reply.

I apologize if it is being taken in some way as a suggestion that she is somehow unworthy of being a parent.

Well, you titled the topic "Was Lwaxana A Good Mother?" and follow it with the summery judgement you wouldn't want her as a mother, and then assert you can't understand why anyone would see it as a condemnation of her parenting is rather a dubious one. You can stand by it or say it doesn't reflect your actual point, but to maintain both comes across as rather disingenuous. Perhaps unintentionally, but disingenuous none the less.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Lwaxana did not know how to maturely react to a situation or the wishes of others. On multiple occasions.

Saying it does not make it so. Where and when? Examples please.

Again, "maturity" is a highly relative and fluid term (especially when talking about alien races). Your biases and bigotries in holding all to the dubious standard of humanity is irrational and, again, xenophobic. I have even illustrated how it could easily and more convincingly be shown that Deanna was the immature one.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I haven't really said she was immature per say...

Actually you have. To say repeatedly that Deanna was the "mature" one in criticizing Lwaxana is to repeatedly assert Lwaxana was the "immature" one. This nonsense of now of trying to rewrite what you've claimed by adding a "more" here and a "less" there equates to an admission as to the wrongness of your position and the unsoundness of your arguments.

 

[TribbleFeeder]

Saying it does not make it so. Where and when? Examples please.

Again, "maturity" is a highly relative and fluid term (especially when talking about alien races). Your biases and bigotries in holding all to the dubious standard of humanity is irrational and, again, xenophobic. I have even illustrated how it could easily and more convincingly be shown that Deanna was the immature one.

#1 example, the situation with Timcin. He was following the traditions of his culture and her selfish and immature desires took priority over what was inherently important to the man she loved.

Deanna had a great head on her shoulders and exhibited maturity and strength pretty much at all times. I’m curious as to when you think she was immature??

 

[DonIago]

Er...I rather think Lwaxana engaged Timicin on the subject because she didn't understand and had come to have feelings for him, and was from a culture with a different perspective on the situation...but in the end, even if she didn't understand, she respected him enough to abide by his wishes.

People are allowed to not immediately defer to you in cases where they don't understand you.

Deanna wasn't all that great about handling it when she lost her powers. Even she said so.

 

[TribbleFeeder]

not immediately

She convinced him to live! It wasn’t an immediate reaction it lasted the whole episode to where she even tried to get Picard involved.

I loved Lwaxana but I will not make excuses for her behavior in this episode.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

I won't make excuses for her either except to say sometimes when you're in love you ignore your head and follow your heart.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

#1 example, the situation with Timcin. He was following the traditions of his culture and her selfish and immature desires took priority over what was inherently important to the man she loved.

This example only causes me to doubt as to whether you understand what "maturity" actually is or means?

Could you say Lwaxana Troi was selfish in not wanting a person who she loved to commit suicide? Yes.

Could you use that situation to say she was immature (as it all played out in the actual episode "Half A Life")? No.

It was a clash of cultures to be sure and that can happen amongst the most mature and open of peoples, and you omit how it ended. Lwaxana (despite her personal pain, distress and suffering over it) chose to be with him at the end. That took strength of love and maturity in putting the needs of the one she loved above her own. Deanna grew up the benefactress of that constant unconditional love and support.

Deanna had a great head on her shoulders and exhibited maturity and strength pretty much at all times. I’m curious as to when you think she was immature??

Wherever and whenever you say Lwaxana was immature and Deanna was mature I'll say it was the reverse. Mainly because I now doubt some here truly knows what "maturity" is or means.

Also, I don't dislike Deanna, I too find Lwaxana irritating at times, however, I don't doubt that Lwaxana is a good mother nor that Deanna can be a bit brattish as evidenced by her occasional embarrassment of her mother. That embarrassment is a sign of immaturity.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

She convinced him to live! It wasn’t an immediate reaction it lasted the whole episode to where she even tried to get Picard involved.

True. That is not however an immature reaction. Emotion does not automatically equate to immaturity.

I loved Lwaxana but I will not make excuses for her behavior in this episode.

There was actually nothing wrong with Lwaxana's behavior in this episode. It was quite well-reasoned and understandable. Certainly nothing that required any excuses. It was a great bit of dramatic writing. Sound on all sides.

 

[DonIago]

She convinced him to live! It wasn’t an immediate reaction it lasted the whole episode to where she even tried to get Picard involved.

I loved Lwaxana but I will not make excuses for her behavior in this episode.

Geeze, you almost sound like she convinced him to rob a bank with her or such...
Timicin was an adult of sound mind as well. It's not like she kidnapped or otherwise coerced him into anything.
Have you never known anyone who you thought was going to do something you didn't approve of, and then tried to influence their decision before they committed to it?

Or are you the type who, when people ask you for advice, you say, "Make up your own mind; I'm not getting involved"?

 

[TribbleFeeder]

This example only causes me to doubt as to whether you understand what "maturity" actually is or means?

I’m not gonna be personally insulted. I’m done here.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

This example only causes me to doubt as to whether you understand what "maturity" actually is or means?

That kind of comment isn't necessary.

 

[Mojochi]

Saying it does not make it so. Where and when? Examples please.

Again, "maturity" is a highly relative and fluid term (especially when talking about alien races). Your biases and bigotries in holding all to the dubious standard of humanity is irrational and, again, xenophobic. I have even illustrated how it could easily and more convincingly be shown that Deanna was the immature one.

I'm not interested in a semantic debate here. I've only said, maybe a couple times, that Deanna must be the mature one or the more mature one, in specific instances, when dealing with Lwaxana, in what is essentially her professional environment. I have not suggested that she is a wholly immature person. Clearly someone who's raised children couldn't be entirely. She has behaved immaturely on occasion though, more so than almost every other character on the show, 2nd to only Q, if that helps clarify

Saying it does not make it so. Where and when? Examples please.

When the captain of the ship meets her upon arrival, in an ambassadorial capacity, & she takes the opportunity to announce he's having sexual thoughts about her, whether it's true or not (Most likely not) That is a sophomoric & juvenile prank to play on someone who is there professionally. It embarrassed Deanna & Picard, & while a funny gag/moment for the show, it's not a mature thing to do

When she deliberately intervenes in Worf's guardianship, undermines his authority, contravenes what Alexander's been instructed to do, she is making a tough situation worse for the parent. Simply because she doesn't agree, she believes she has the right to meddle & interfere. Right or wrong on the issue, that is not a responsible way to behave. It's kind of reckless imho

I can't even remember all the times she belittles her daughter over being single, or imposes on Riker to push that agenda... again, in the work place. To call your adult daughter "Little one" at her job is demeaning enough that she literally gets called out on it eventually

Assuming she has the approval to address the captain informally as Jean-Luc, commenting on the appeal of his legs, making unwanted advances toward him. Referring to the Antedian delegates as something she'd see on a plate. Calling Data a robot. Assumes the ship is at her disposal for her wedding, & so on...

It's juvenile things she's doing there. That doesn't mean she's wholly immature, just prone to think it's ok to act that way now & then. In this thread I was hoping to have a discussion about what amount of that is fair & forgivable for a mother, given her history of tragedy, her culture, her title etc... I'd say it's not entirely without excuse, but I'm not going to apologize for addressing what should be obvious

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I’m not gonna be personally insulted. I’m done here.

No insult was intended nor should it have been taken as such. It was solely an honest assessment based on repeated observations of a word being misapplied. It is a benefit to have such things pointed out so we may learn and grow. You see maturity, as I see it, is a constant process of self-examination, growth, learning and coping. Others are free to see it differently.