Was Kirk Really Essential in TMP?

[Tallguy]

I agree with that interpretation. But by the question I mean, where's the specific evidence on screen? Decker's a completely new character, all we know about him is what's in the film, and we know Kirk was dead wrong in half of his statement there. Putting our bias for Kirk aside, where's the specific evidence that Kirk isn't overestimating or even exaggerating the significance of his experience next to Decker's?

Well for starters he's James T. Kirk, living legend. Decker is an "untried captain". Maybe an M-5 could find why Decker would be at an advantage.

More seriously, Decker is meant to be a man with serious potential, but he's clearly not supposed to be "there" yet. He is Will Riker, after all. Thankfully he is never the cartoon that John Harriman was.

I think Kirk's "unfamiliarity" with the ship is probably overstated. If he was being asked to fly the ship himself or rebalance the warp drive, sure he's not up on the new designs. That's why there are 499 people who know their jobs.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Decker is an "untried captain".

True, Scotty says that.

Please allow me to opine that the idea that they would give command of the most advanced ship in Starfleet to an inexperienced captain is ludicrous.

 

[Tallguy]

Please allow me to opine that the idea that they would give command of the most advanced ship in Starfleet to an inexperienced captain is ludicrous.

Star Trek's notion of "captain" is on the silly side.

 

[BillJ]

I agree with that interpretation. But by the question I mean, where's the specific evidence on screen? Decker's a completely new character, all we know about him is what's in the film, and we know Kirk was dead wrong in half of his statement there. Putting our bias for Kirk aside, where's the specific evidence that Kirk isn't overestimating or even exaggerating the significance of his experience next to Decker's?

I think (as a self-avowed Kirk-homer), that the movie shows that Decker is over his head based on his suggestions about destroying the tractor beam and his overreaction to the loss of Ilia.

 

[BillJ]

True, Scotty says that.

Please allow me to opine that the idea that they would give command of the most advanced ship in Starfleet to an inexperienced captain is ludicrous.

I think it would depend on what mission they envisioned him commanding. Was he going to be the captain beyond the shakedown cruise, even if he was, would Starfleet send its most advanced asset (which is currently one of a kind) near politically unstable space.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think (as a self-avowed Kirk-homer), that the movie shows that Decker is over his head based on his suggestions about destroying the tractor beam and his overreaction to the loss of Ilia.

Absolutely.

 

[Tallguy]

I think it would depend on what mission they envisioned him commanding. Was he going to be the captain beyond the shakedown cruise, even if he was, would Starfleet send its most advanced asset (which is currently one of a kind) near politically unstable space.

I always got the idea that he would be the next Jim Kirk. Only in this case they needed the already Jim Kirk.

 

[BillJ]

I think it might have been more interesting, early in the film, if Kirk had been the mission commander with Decker remaining in the center seat.

 

[Tallguy]

I think it might have been more interesting, early in the film, if Kirk had been the mission commander with Decker remaining in the center seat.

Kirk could have been the Star Trek Crazy Admiral.

"Hey kid, did I ever tell you about when your old man did this to me?"

 

[BillJ]

Kirk could have been the Star Trek Crazy Admiral.

Another road they could’ve went down was one where Kirk was happy with his new life and had moved on. Coming back wasn’t his choice but it reignites his love for the center seat.

Though the Spock story kinda works the same side of the street.

 

[Ceridwen]

Crucially, just how legit was the five-year mission experience as a reason to push Decker aside?

Given the number of fans who have accused the movie of just being a retread of "The Changeling"? When Kirk says he has experience dealing with unknowns like this, he's apparently dead on.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think Kirk's "unfamiliarity" with the ship is probably overstated. If he was being asked to fly the ship himself or rebalance the warp drive, sure he's not up on the new designs. That's why there are 499 people who know their jobs.

It might also be worthwhile to point out that, in the wormhole, Decker almost certainly would have saved time when Kirk ordered Chekov to stand by on phasers, by simply reporting that phasers are down but photon torpedoes are still functioning.

 

[Tallguy]

It might also be worthwhile to point out that, in the wormhole, Decker almost certainly would have saved time when Kirk ordered Chekov to stand by on phasers, by simply reporting that phasers are down but photon torpedoes are still functioning.

Hmmm. Kirk orders. Decker informs Kirk. Kirk (hopefully) re-orders. Chekov responds.
Vs. Kirk orders. Decker countermands. Checkov responds.

He acted properly, of course.

Given the number of fans who have accused the movie of just being a retread of "The Changeling"? When Kirk says he has experience dealing with unknowns like this, he's apparently dead on.

While I obviously see the parallels between Changeling and TMP, I rather think the comparison is overblown. "Alien is actually something we sent from Earth" is fairly generic. (People more versed in classic sci-fi can probably point to where it had been done before The Changeling.)

The more specific repeat is when they encounter the Intruder and it a) overwhelms their shields and b) is talking too fast to understand until c) Spock fixes it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Hmmm. Kirk orders. Decker informs Kirk. Kirk (hopefully) re-orders. Chekov responds.
Vs. Kirk orders. Decker countermands. Checkov responds.

He acted properly, of course.

More like

Kirk orders. Decker informs Kirk. Kirk (hopefully) re-orders (why wouldn't he?). Chekov responds.​

Vs.​

Kirk orders. Decker countermands without explaining or even giving new orders. Decker runs across the bridge, during a weirdly disorienting phenomenon, almost falls over. Then orders photon torpedoes. Chekov responds.​

If Decker had been knocked unconscious, who was going figure out about the phasers and order photon torpedoes? The engineering NPC on the bridge?

 

[Ceridwen]

While I obviously see the parallels between Changeling and TMP, I rather think the comparison is overblown.

Same, but it was funny.

 

[fireproof78]

I think it might have been more interesting, early in the film, if Kirk had been the mission commander with Decker remaining in the center seat.

Agreed. I think Kirk would do better as Admiral Kirk, seeing the mission from all angles rather that the more myopic, or inexperienced, Decker.

As it stands as the film is presented, Kirk feels more myopic, and gratuitous by how inclusion.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Decker is an "untried captain".

True, Scotty says that.

Please allow me to opine that the idea that they would give command of the most advanced ship in Starfleet to an inexperienced captain is ludicrous.

But Decker also says in his first meeting with Kirk, that Kirk recommended Decker for the position of Captain of Enterprise.

Decker could have been like Kirk in that he commanded a smaller vessel as a Lt. Commander or Commander before Kirk recommended him for Captain of Enterprise.

There's no way Kirk would have recommended Decker to oversee the refit of the Enterprise if Kirk didn't expect Decker to command the ship after the refit was completed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think it might have been more interesting, early in the film, if Kirk had been the mission commander with Decker remaining in the center seat.

In theory, but I see some fundamental problems.

IMO, they'd need to add an admiral's station on the bridge, probably on the starboard side, perhaps by sprucing up and repurposing the engineering station that was pretty useless to the story. That's maybe not that big a deal, but it's emblematic of the larger problem, which is that it runs contrary to the TOS formula.

Frankly, there are multiple contrivances to get everyone back to their stations (or close enough) and to restore the TOS status quo. The whole idea was to adapt the series format to the big screen. They were literally banking on that for its success. Going against that is kinda like going off-mission.

But OK, you said early in the film. So, what happens? Is it Decker who gets digitized by the probe? Or does he get injured and incapacitated when Ilia gets it, say while he's trying to interfere and somehow prevent the probe's plasma from enveloping her? And then Kirk takes over as captain, while Chapel and McCoy fix him up, and once the Ilia probe beams in the story unfolds as normal? I mean, maybe.

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But Decker also says in his first meeting with Kirk, that Kirk recommended Decker for the position of Captain of Enterprise.

Decker could have been like Kirk in that he commanded a smaller vessel as a Lt. Commander or Commander before Kirk recommended him for Captain of Enterprise.

There's no way Kirk would have recommended Decker to oversee the refit of the Enterprise if Kirk didn't expect Decker to command the ship after the refit was completed.

Thank you. I absolutely agree completely.

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Something different:

Mark Farinas has done "The Motion Picture Redux" as an episode of his brilliantly executed fan comic series Star Trek – The Webcomic. I think his alternate take is especially interesting in light of our discussion.