Was Dukat really evil?

[Shada Dukal]

Half of mankind is on Prozac, so I don’t think that Dukat in the beginning was crazier than anyone else. He treated his enemies too good and this was his mistake. The desire for control and domination is part human nature too but these qualities are extremely heightened in Cardassians – they value control and order.

It is a matter of point of view – a dictator according to the Federation and the Bajorans and a cunning patriotic politician and a good military leader from a Cardassian point of view. He made the most out of nothing – all choices led to a dead end but he did his best to balance them.

What options were left for him and for Cardassia? It goes as far as the circumstances require it.

Who exactly accuses Dukat – a bunch of terrorists coming from an insignificant backward world and the Sisko who led his own private war in the DMZ and replaced the Federation casualty lists with Romulan casualty lists and said that he could live with that. Well, I can live with what Dukat did for his people, too.

 

[Sci]

Half of mankind is on Prozac, so I don’t think that Dukat in the beginning was crazier than anyone else. He treated his enemies too good

Yeah, bullshit. When you're presiding over forced labor camps and preventing the democratic self-rule of a culture, that's not treating them "too good."

It is a matter of point of view – a dictator according to the Federation and the Bajorans and a cunning patriotic politician and a good military leader from a Cardassian point of view.

No. All points of view are not equally valid. Hans Frank is not the moral equivalent of FDR.

What options were left for him and for Cardassia?

Withdrawal from Bajor. The restoration of Bajoran sovereignty. The renunciation of imperialism. A willingness to trade with other worlds as equals.

Who exactly accuses Dukat – a bunch of terrorists coming from an insignificant backward world and the Sisko who led his own private war in the DMZ and replaced the Federation casualty lists with Romulan casualty lists and said that he could live with that. Well, I can live with what Dukat did for his people, too.

More bullshit.

Is the Federation morally pure? No. But even at its worst, the Federation's sins are a reaction to Cardassian and Dominion aggression. Neither Bajor nor the UFP launched any wars of aggression against the Cardassian Union. The Cardassian Union launched wars of aggression against them; ergo, any sins their agents may commit are caused by the necessity to defend against aggression -- a necessity Cardassia never experienced.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

There is no such thing as moral absolutism.

And if Dukat wasn't evil, then, to coin a Godwin, neither was Hitler, Pol Pot, Che Guerva, Stalin and all others like them aren't.

Morality is just an excuse to hurt people anyway.

 

[Sci]

Morality is just an excuse to hurt people anyway.

No. Morality is an attempt to organize and codify the human instinct for empathy that promotes mutual affection and cooperation.

It, like any other organized system of thought, may be twisted around to provide rhetorical justification for objectives that involve harming others. But that is a deliberate mis-use of the concept of morality, not something inherent to the idea.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

Morality is just an excuse to hurt people anyway.

No. Morality is an attempt to organize and codify the human instinct for empathy that promotes mutual affection and cooperation.

It, like any other organized system of thought, may be twisted around to provide rhetorical justification for objectives that involve harming others. But that is a deliberate mis-use of the concept of morality, not something inherent to the idea.

No. Morality is just an excuse to hurt people. If you don't obey my authority I will stomp you kind of way.

That's all morality ever does. It just hurts and destroys people, and commits all kinds of atrocities all over the world.

Because people who are doing these idiotic things to hurt people ALWAYS think they are doing the right thing and NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES see how they are hurting and destroying people.

The only way to keep people in line is to hurt them. Nothing else works. You have to hurt people anyway to keep them to conform to your demands and rules you wish to impose on to people

So, now comes the part where you start getting all angry at me because I am not like you.

 

[Sci]

Morality is just an excuse to hurt people anyway.

No. Morality is an attempt to organize and codify the human instinct for empathy that promotes mutual affection and cooperation.

It, like any other organized system of thought, may be twisted around to provide rhetorical justification for objectives that involve harming others. But that is a deliberate mis-use of the concept of morality, not something inherent to the idea.

No. Morality is just an excuse to hurt people. If you don't obey my authority I will stomp you kind of way.

That's all morality ever does. It just hurts and destroys people, and commits all kinds of atrocities all over the world.

Because people who are doing these idiotic things to hurt people ALWAYS think they are doing the right thing and NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES see how they are hurting and destroying people.

The only way to keep people in line is to hurt them. Nothing else works. You have to hurt people anyway to keep them to conform to your demands and rules you wish to impose on to people

So, now comes the part where you start getting all angry at me because I am not like you.

I'm not angry at you. I just think you're full of nonsense.

 

[locutus101]

Dukat worked people to death in forced labor camps. Even if he had spent the rest of his life, helping people on a large scale that wouldn't have compensated for that first atrocity. And he didn't do that did he?

 

[unimatrix7]

Dukat worked people to death in forced labor camps. Even if he had spent the rest of his life, helping people on a large scale that wouldn't have compensated for that first atrocity. And he didn't do that did he?

This always bothered me. It was like Our Heroes never seemed to care to much about that, except when Kira made an occasional comment about it. Apart from that she was more than happy to giggle like a 12 year old when he sat on something sharp, help him resist the Klingon invasion of Cardassia, and be all chummy with him when Ziyal paints a few pretty pictures (all the while in the background he's annihilating Starfleet).

Then there's Sisko's "y'know Dukat, I thought you'd changed..." Like I'm sorry, but this man was a despicably evil tyrant who committed endless atrocities. That after all his visits to DS9 it didn't occur to anybody to arrest the bloke and charge him with war crimes...speaks volumes about why the Federation is considered by everyone else in the quadrant to be weak and naive.

 

[kkt]

The armistice and later peace treaty between Bajor and Cardassia probably included not arresting and prosecuting Cardassian officers for acts done under orders from their government during the occupation. And it would be counterproductive, at many times prior to Ziyal's death, however much they disliked Dukat, the Federation or Bajor had to cooperate with him in order to get something important done. People and situations are complex, while Dukat did commit horrible acts, the situation was not of his making, and other aspects of Dukat's life were praiseworthy. I think it was more interesting when he was a complex character, with both light and dark, than the caricature he became at the end of the series.

 

[kkt]

Wernher von Braun started his career building rockets to blow up London. Nasty. After the war, we could have tried him and probably executed him. Instead, when NASA's rockets had a nasty habit of blowing up on the launch pad, we got von Braun and his team to design them. Result, during the Apollo program, not a single mission was delayed, cancelled, or aborted because of problems with the rockets.

 

[Guy Gardener]

DS9 is Mrs Doubtfire in Space.

Dukat had to wear a tiny disguise to spend quality time with his daughter Kira.

 

[Shada Dukal]

Sci
Re: Was Dukat really evil?
Shada Dukal wrote: View Post
Half of mankind is on Prozac, so I don’t think that Dukat in the beginning was crazier than anyone else. He treated his enemies too good
Yeah, bullshit. When you're presiding over forced labor camps and preventing the democratic self-rule of a culture, that's not treating them "too good."

It is a matter of point of view – a dictator according to the Federation and the Bajorans and a cunning patriotic politician and a good military leader from a Cardassian point of view.
No. All points of view are not equally valid. Hans Frank is not the moral equivalent of FDR.

What options were left for him and for Cardassia?
Withdrawal from Bajor. The restoration of Bajoran sovereignty. The renunciation of imperialism. A willingness to trade with other worlds as equals.

Who exactly accuses Dukat – a bunch of terrorists coming from an insignificant backward world and the Sisko who led his own private war in the DMZ and replaced the Federation casualty lists with Romulan casualty lists and said that he could live with that. Well, I can live with what Dukat did for his people, too.
More bullshit.

Is the Federation morally pure? No. But even at its worst, the Federation's sins are a reaction to Cardassian and Dominion aggression. Neither Bajor nor the UFP launched any wars of aggression against the Cardassian Union. The Cardassian Union launched wars of aggression against them; ergo, any sins their agents may commit are caused by the necessity to defend against aggression -- a necessity Cardassia never experienced.

Administratively speaking, Dukat was presiding over labor camps because the collaborative Bajoran government sanctioned the Occupation. Secretary Kubus Oak signed off on the orders for workers. Geopolitically speaking, Bajorans were weak and disunited, had no standing army, failed to forge an alliance with the Federation and the Cardassians made full use of that. In purely political terms, the Bajorans were quite a traditional theocracy with a caste system so their democratic development seems quite unlikely.


Hans Frank was the Governor of Poland during the Nazi Occupation of Poland but both Occupations can’t be compared. Poland was taken by means of a blitzkrieg because France and England refused to budge although they had a treaty with Poland. Bajoran Occupation became a fact after a 10 year’s period of political maneuvering because the Bajoran politicians frittered away their chances to prevent it.



Withdrawal from Bajor became a fact in 2369. The only imperialistic thing that remained on Bajor was the Federation.


The mere fact the Federation is so big and opulent speaks volumes. No one controls so much space by being a goody-goody. The Federation fought Cardassia during the Border Wars, carried out subversive acts against Cardassia and supported Bajoran terrorism during the Occupation. The Cardassian Union took care of its political and economical interests but the Federation has always had the unhealthy habit of poking into someone else’s affairs.

All points of view are as valid as one is willing to support them.

 

[locutus101]

DS9 is Mrs Doubtfire in Space.

Dukat had to wear a tiny disguise to spend quality time with his daughter Kira.

She was already born when he raped her mother. How could she be his daughter?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Step daughter.

He married Kira's mother, or they lived together long enough to justify a common law marriage, therefore Meru's children were his children.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

While it may be true that the Bajoran occupational government sanctioned the occupation, it's important to remember that they were manipulated into doing so. The Cardassian occupational force knew full well what they were doing - they used trickery, deceit and outright violence in order to force the Bajorans to do their bidding. The Bajorans hardly knew what hit them.

So you can't blame Bajor for having any part in the occupation - they weren't responsible, because they couldn't defend themselves against the trickery employed by the Cardassians. (And yes, there were Bajorans among that government who willingly cooperated, but they can't be said to be representative of the entire Bajoran race.)

As for Dukat? Oh hell yeah, he was evil. Despite the propaganda of the day, there are still instances where absolute evil (and good) exists. Not everything is relative. There are still obvious good and evil people, in real life and in fiction. Dukat is an example of that evil.

Evil that is charming and charismatic is STILL EVIL.

 

[Shada Dukal]

I fully agree that the Bajorans were manipulated into the Occupation but I don’t think that ignorance and gullibility are valid excuses in geopolitical or trade relations when each party takes advantage of its opponent’s weaknesses. Besides, each nation deserves its historical fate and has to live with its choices. Cardassia paid the full price with a stiff upper lip while the characters and the viewers were gloating over Cardassia’s demise and hardships. Bajor never ceased to snivel and blame Cardassia for their misfortunes but in fact, they were victims of their own separatism and planetary isolationism long before the Cardassians.

Yes, there are so many good people in the world and this makes it such an interesting and challenging place. These good people don’t mind when their RL governments coerce and press smaller countries for resources, markets or political influence but they suddenly become very moral and jump at Dukat’s throat for doing what their RL governments do. Probably because in fictional discussions there is nothing real at stake, they won’t lose their life standard, social amenities and political freedoms so they can afford to be good. As Quark would put it, “The price of being good is at an all-time low.”

As far as Dukat is concerned, I guess the supporters of moral absolutism are fully convinced that Dukat was evil while the adherents to moral relativism do not accept it. Ironically, it suits me perfectly because it only proves that morality is relative and subjective.

Yes, being charming is of vital importance. “It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.” Oscar Wild.

BTW, it is 5th May today. Happy birthday, Mr. Alaimo, and many happy returns of the day!

 

[mos6507]

It's the banality of evil. Evil people still have to get up each morning and put their pants on one leg at a time. They are all too human.

 

[Sci]

Half of mankind is on Prozac, so I don’t think that Dukat in the beginning was crazier than anyone else. He treated his enemies too good

Yeah, bullshit. When you're presiding over forced labor camps and preventing the democratic self-rule of a culture, that's not treating them "too good."

It is a matter of point of view – a dictator according to the Federation and the Bajorans and a cunning patriotic politician and a good military leader from a Cardassian point of view.

No. All points of view are not equally valid. Hans Frank is not the moral equivalent of FDR.

What options were left for him and for Cardassia?

Withdrawal from Bajor. The restoration of Bajoran sovereignty. The renunciation of imperialism. A willingness to trade with other worlds as equals.

Who exactly accuses Dukat – a bunch of terrorists coming from an insignificant backward world and the Sisko who led his own private war in the DMZ and replaced the Federation casualty lists with Romulan casualty lists and said that he could live with that. Well, I can live with what Dukat did for his people, too.

More bullshit.

Is the Federation morally pure? No. But even at its worst, the Federation's sins are a reaction to Cardassian and Dominion aggression. Neither Bajor nor the UFP launched any wars of aggression against the Cardassian Union. The Cardassian Union launched wars of aggression against them; ergo, any sins their agents may commit are caused by the necessity to defend against aggression -- a necessity Cardassia never experienced.

Administratively speaking, Dukat was presiding over labor camps because the collaborative Bajoran government sanctioned the Occupation.

Yeah, and the Nazis occupied France at the behest of the Vichy French regime under the pretense of law.

The key word being "pretense."

Setting up a puppet regime that rubber stamps your decisions to give the illusion of the occupied nation still having independence doesn't make it real.

Geopolitically speaking, Bajorans were weak and disunited, had no standing army, failed to forge an alliance with the Federation

So what? None of that justifies the Occupation.

If you go by the novels, Bajor was united and did have a standing army. But the Cardassians usurped control of the Bajoran government through bribery, intimidation, and then by outright assassinating the First Minister to install a puppet government that was loyal to them, not the Bajoran people.

In purely political terms, the Bajorans were quite a traditional theocracy with a caste system so their democratic development seems quite unlikely.

So what? None of that justifies the Cardassian Occupation.

Hans Frank was the Governor of Poland during the Nazi Occupation of Poland but both Occupations can’t be compared.

Sure they can. They were both acts of aggression and conquest that had no justification or legitimacy whatsoever.

Withdrawal from Bajor became a fact in 2369.

Now you are moving the goal posts. If you ask, "What alternative to the occupation did Cardassia have?," you cannot cite the 2369 withdrawal when someone points out that they could have withdrawn much, much earlier -- that they in fact had no right to occupy Bajor in the first place.

The mere fact the Federation is so big and opulent speaks volumes. No one controls so much space by being a goody-goody.

Unsupported assertion.

The Federation... carried out subversive acts against Cardassia

Unsupported assertion.

and supported Bajoran terrorism during the Occupation.

False. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation supported the Bajoran Resistance.

The Cardassian Union took care of its political and economical interests

"Its political and economic interests." By which you mean, the Cardassian Union profited from acts of mass murder, oppression, and plunder.

I am reminded of the words of George Orwell:

"Political language — and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists — is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."

but the Federation has always had the unhealthy habit of poking into someone else’s affairs.

Occupying a foreign nation and murdering millions of people so that you can profit from their nation's exploitation is the very definition of "poking into someone else's affairs."

All points of view are as valid as one is willing to support them.

No. Some points of view are evil, and being willing to fight for the ability to do evil does not make it valid.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

There is no such thing as moral absolutism.

If there was there would be only one morality and those who preach it would adhere themselves to it.

All moral absolutists have their idea of what is absolute but they are all different codes of morality.

So if there was such a thing as absolute morality, there would only be one form of it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Federation supported the Bajoran Resistance.

And isn't there at least one ep (possibly of TNG) where the Federation is asked WHY it didn't, and the Prime Directive is cited as a reason?