Was Dukat really evil?

[Ender9]

re-watching "the waltz", i must say i kinda think Dukat had some points. I know people will be mad at me, but, sincerely, Sisko says Dukat was evil because of he's actions while under orders from an entire different culture, wheres the prime directive now? I mean, Earth itself had it's share of bloody wars, hell, even Sisko bombarded a planet to stop the Maqui because they ware threatening the peace.
How can he judge Dukat? Cardassia was desperate to get resources at the time they made the occupation. Can we judge the way a entire race behave? Where is the prime directive? Besides, Bajor was NOT a part of the federation by that time. As i remember Picard didn't get involved in the beginning of the Klingon civil-war because of the prime directive, and for that he could have sacrificed Worf's life...

About all that villainy stuff Dukat said, with he's state of mind, i don't think it's fair to judge the man that was hallucinating. Having a Bajoran major at your side telling how bad and disgusting you are can let you really mad. Especially if you used to be a proud man ruling an empire.

So, i dare to ask:

WAS DUKAT REALLY THAT EVIL? Or was he just being what he is, a Cardassian? Would we not do the same at the situation?

By the way: This is a complete objective analysis, we're as the federation here, NOT the Bajorans.

I don't subscribe to this kind of moral relativism.

Unnecessarily increasing the suffering of other sentient beings is immoral, and Dukat, having inflicted it upon tens of millions of Bajorans, was evil.

Morality is a spectrum and nothing is ever completely black-and-white. Alaimo's portrayal of Dukat, especially up until 'Waltz', demonstrated this, making him a brilliantly written and acted villain. Regardless of his more moral moments, he was still, on balance, an incredibly immoral person.

There's no rational justification for pursuing one's own interests and reducing one's own suffering while at the same time ignoring the suffering of others, which is just as real as one's own. That's where I get moral objectivity from and such reasoning is universal, whether we're on Cardassia, Bajor or Vulcan.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

You guys have some really good points here, i do believe now, he was evil, the thing for me is, most cardassians ware like that, it was a general idea of the cardassians to be immoral and agressive, so, by cardassians standards perhaps Dukat, was, in fact, doing a great service for cardassia. The cardassians could have a complete different moral code. What right do we have to say ours is better?

About Sisko, thing is i just think it was kinda hypocrisy of his part to say that Dukat was evil... I mean... We all know that if was Picard there he would end the episode with something like: "poor soul... he was dominated by aggressiveness and desire for power. We must take care to not let that monster that is inside of us all get free like it did with that man." That would be more appropriated, in my humble opinion.

But Sisko just got over it like if he was the perfect man to judge what is evil. Of course, he was the emissary, but still... I think it was kind of selfish.

Ever heard the phrase 'Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose'?

Moral relativism ends at harming the defenseless.

 

[kirkfan]

Dukat is not evil, he's just a misunderstood philanthropist, just like Hitler and Mussolini. What we call holocaust, they called "tough love"...

 

[anti-matter]

In the last season when he changed his identity ...absolutely he was criminally insane. And I suppose that would qualify as evil to 'most' posters.

It would be interesting to read StarFleets psychological profile on Dukat at the time Sisko took over Ops at DS9.

At that time I would say no...we can't be sure but I suspect his decent into 'evil' started with his Dominion treaty obligations.

He was well written for and provided the series with a vital, compelling character.

 

[kirkfan]

In the last season when he changed his identity ...absolutely he was criminally insane. And I suppose that would qualify as evil to 'most' posters.

It would be interesting to read StarFleets psychological profile on Dukat at the time Sisko took over Ops at DS9.

At that time I would say no...we can't be sure but I suspect his decent into 'evil' started with his Dominion treaty obligations.

He was well written for and provided the series with a vital, compelling character.

Actually, the more insane he became, the less of a criminal he was, according to criminal law in most developed countries that is.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Cardassians were more like Space early 19th Century British than Space Nazis. They didn't want to exterminate other races, they just thought they were the greatest culture in the galaxy and that made them entitled to lead it.

With all the focus on World War 2 we forget that the Colonial mentality was pretty damn brutal too. They invaded China just because they tried to stop them from selling heroin there.

@kirkfan

I dunno. If you're schizophrenic you can claim not guilty by reason of insanity. Dukat wasn't schizophrenic, he was a psychopath.

 

[Sidewinder]

The Cardassians were more like Space early 19th Century British than Space Nazis. They didn't want to exterminate other races, they just thought they were the greatest culture in the galaxy and that made them entitled to lead it.

With all the focus on World War 2 we forget that the Colonial mentality was pretty damn brutal too. They invaded China just because they tried to stop them from selling heroin there.

@kirkfan

I dunno. If you're schizophrenic you can claim not guilty by reason of insanity. Dukat wasn't schizophrenic, he was a psychopath.

Psychopaths cannot feel pain or remorse, of he were truly a psychopath, he would have never let his illegitimate daughter ruin his career.

Instead, he chose to acknowledge his Half-Bajoran daughter and was shamed by his people and demoted to a freighter.

Unless you believe that her death was what drove him to becoming a psychopath. Which is possible.

 

[kirkfan]

...
@kirkfan

I dunno. If you're schizophrenic you can claim not guilty by reason of insanity. Dukat wasn't schizophrenic, he was a psychopath.

If you think you are talking to other people like he did, that's textbook schizophrenia. That's why I don't think he was merely a psychopath.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Dukat was mentally ill between the death of his daughter and Waltz. He was perfectly of sound mind prior to that.

It's true Ziyal is the anomaly that argues for him having real emotions. Maybe narcissism is more accurate. But I suspect his feelings for Ziyal were really feelings for himself. He had to sacrifice his position to help an innocent girl because it fit better with his self image.

 

[kirkfan]

Dukat was mentally ill between the death of his daughter and Waltz. He was perfectly of sound mind prior to that.

It's true Ziyal is the anomaly that argues for him having real emotions. Maybe narcissism is more accurate. But I suspect his feelings for Ziyal were really feelings for himself. He had to sacrifice his position to help an innocent girl because it fit better with his self image.

I don't think so. I think Ziyal is the only person that Dukat genuinely loved, a fatherly love. That's why it hit him so hard when she died. The only person that had a shot, a very long shot though, at making Dukat a better person, died.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I agree. Dukat's love for his children was his sole redeeming quality, IMHO.

 

[Brie]

To be honest I haven't read every post to this thread, so if I repeat an opinion I'm sorry.

I say no he was not a kind character, That being said...He had his moments. There were several times when I though He may come around and prove me wrong. When he decided to let his daughter live I though he was going to turn around and be a good guy, I was wrong. When she died, I thought his mental break would turn him around, I was wrong. there are several instances where I really thought he was going to change, but he stayed a villain right up until the bitter end.

 

[Melakon]

For a while, it seemed the writers forgot that Dukat was supposed to be the bad guy. Marc Alaimo of course ate it up, playing the different aspects of the character with everything he could. It was Marc's skill that made the character anything close to likable.

 

[Tosk]

For a while, it seemed the writers forgot that Dukat was supposed to be the bad guy.

They actually did. It is mentioned in one of the 'making of' books, that they actually had to consciously steer the character back to being a bastard.

 

[Sidewinder]

For a while, it seemed the writers forgot that Dukat was supposed to be the bad guy. Marc Alaimo of course ate it up, playing the different aspects of the character with everything he could. It was Marc's skill that made the character anything close to likable.

I consider him the best bad guy in any Trek series or movie. I know that is high praise, but Alaimo turned that originally one dimensional, typical Cardassian, into an extremely deep and complex person.

 

[Data girl]

I loved the part where he said "I'm Gul Dukat commander of the second order" even Sisko was impressed

 

[Shada Dukal]

Moral relativism works perfectly, but people have problems with changing the viewpoints and always insist that there must be some universals that allow for a final judgment. In philosophy maybe, in real life, I doubt it. Universals kill the uniqueness of each situation under discussion and justify moral arbitration which is more abhorrent than assuming an unpopular point of view.

In fact, relativism is a typical philosophical stance for a Cardassian. Iloja of Prim believed that one's vantage point often affected their observation and understanding of the universe. A different point of view can lead to a different point of understanding or a deeper one. The question is whether you view Dukat’s actions from a humanistic perspective or from in-character and Cardassian perspective. If one assumes the Cardassian point of view, Dukat’s actions are geopolitical choices that are beyond good and evil so they are no worse than the maneuvering and power bickering of all other galactic powers – the Federation, the Klingons or the Romulans. Nothing personal, what Sisko and the Bajorans call Occupation, the Cardassians call survival and political necessity.

In my view, Dukat was not evil, simply Star Trek culture did not deserve him.

 

[Autistoid]

Gul Dukat was a psychopath.

He's a textbook psychopathic dictator.

They put in so many intentional details to make him fit this character profile.(In fact within the first episode he pretty much hits all of the checks on the Ppath test)

Any action that may be considered to be moral, was clearly shown to be motivated for his desire to dominate and control people.

The strange part of his character is that he seemed obsessed with winning over the station crew.

No matter how much they hated him, he wanted there admiration and would go to great lengths to get it.

 

[Autistoid]

Moral relativism works perfectly, but people have problems with changing the viewpoints and always insist that there must be some universals that allow for a final judgment. In philosophy maybe, in real life, I doubt it. Universals kill the uniqueness of each situation under discussion and justify moral arbitration which is more abhorrent than assuming an unpopular point of view.

That only goes so far. Even within the value system of cardassians he's done many actions that contradict there value system.

 

[hux]

Dhukat: Me, the baddie?......what would make you think that