Was CARTWRIGHT..right?

[RobertScorpio]

Cartwright may have been part of the cabal to kill the president and all that. But were those who shared his sentiment, including Kirk at the start of TUC, that the Klingons would be come the trash of the galaxy, so they should have been allowed to die, right? I mean, we all know what happens after TUC, all the way up to TNG/DS9. Was saving the KLINGON empire really that worth it or not???

Rob

 

[RyuRoots]

Considering that the Klingons were a part of the alliance that kept the Dominion from winning the Dominion War, I'd say that ultimately it was.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Considering that the Klingons were a part of the alliance that kept the Dominion from winning the Dominion War, I'd say that ultimately it was.

True...but when you look at the "Klingon civil" war, the whole thing with Worf's dad, and the episodes like the first Klingon episode of TNG, and...I don't know. I think we should have let the empire fall...heck, half of them were in league with the Romulans anyway.

Rob

 

[DWF]

Considering that the Klingons were a part of the alliance that kept the Dominion from winning the Dominion War, I'd say that ultimately it was.

True...but when you look at the "Klingon civil" war, the whole thing with Worf's dad, and the episodes like the first Klingon episode of TNG, and...I don't know. I think we should have let the empire fall...heck, half of them were in league with the Romulans anyway.

Rob

Chang and later the Duras sisters were in league with the Romulans but now all of the Klingons were. In the end I think it was the right decision and it kind of fulfilled what the Organians said back in Errand Of Mercy.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Considering that the Klingons were a part of the alliance that kept the Dominion from winning the Dominion War, I'd say that ultimately it was.

True...but when you look at the "Klingon civil" war, the whole thing with Worf's dad, and the episodes like the first Klingon episode of TNG, and...I don't know. I think we should have let the empire fall...heck, half of them were in league with the Romulans anyway.

Rob

Chang and later the Duras sisters were in league with the Romulans but now all of the Klingons were. In the end I think it was the right decision and it kind of fulfilled what the Organians said back in Errand Of Mercy.

I hate that episode...well..sorta. It does fit TREK's mantra, but it really helped them cut down on future battles (ie FX budget)

Rob

 

[DonIago]

If you were watching Star Trek hoping for big space battles on a regular basis, you were kind of missing the point I think...

 

[RobertScorpio]

If you were watching Star Trek hoping for big space battles on a regular basis, you were kind of missing the point I think...

yeah..I know. I actually did like that episode..I am a softie at heart.

Rob

 

[Yeoman Randi]

^ I love that episode. And yes, i think it WAS the right thing to do (refering to your original question). I do so enjoy looking at those early "swarthy" Klingons too. That old makeup still cracks me up!

 

[RobertScorpio]

^ I love that episode. And yes, i think it WAS the right thing to do (refering to your original question). I do so enjoy looking at those early "swarthy" Klingons too. That old makeup still cracks me up!

and John Colicos really was good. I loved that guy, he was so hammy. He was on General Hospital for just a wee bit of time, playing the evil Mikkos Cassadine. And even though he wasn't there for long (being frozen to death by the Ice Princes Weather Altering Device lazer beam) he was fun to watch...and as Kor, he set the template!

Rob

 

[Ward Fowler]

It's hard to say. Did the Federation's decision to offer an olive branch cost the lives of Federation citizens in the future? Yes, clearly it did. Did it also save Federation lives? Yes. To decide the correctness of the decision depends on what point in time you are looking at. I guess you would have to take a really long view on whether it was worth it for the Federation. In an absolute moral sense, it was the right thing to do because otherwise the Klingon race may not have survived. Not helping would have been tantamount to genocide.

 

[RobertScorpio]

It's hard to say. Did the Federation's decision to offer an olive branch cost the lives of Federation citizens in the future? Yes, clearly it did. Did it also save Federation lives? Yes. To decide the correctness of the decision depends on what point in time you are looking at. I guess you would have to take a really long view on whether it was worth it for the Federation. In an absolute moral sense, it was the right thing to do because otherwise the Klingon race may not have survived. Not helping would have been tantamount to genocide.

I think, and maybe this has happened, but someone should write a book explaining where the Organians went. Because many events in TREK seem to happen as if there was no peace-treaty. And did their 'control' also include control of the Romulans?

I think stepping in was intervering. The galaxy, I think, is like life. The strongest survive, and the weakest lose...nature created things that way it seems...

Rob

 

[Ward Fowler]

I think, and maybe this has happened, but someone should write a book explaining where the Organians went. Because many events in TREK seem to happen as if there was no peace-treaty.

To my knowledge, no such book has been written, but it's a fantastic idea.

In the real world, it was convenient to ignore the Organians because the Klingon's were the most famous Trek villians and the ones that writer's most wanted to use.

I think stepping in was intervering. The galaxy, I think, is like life. The strongest survive, and the weakest lose...nature created things that way it seems...

Rob

Yes, but even now, as humanity evolves and develops new technologies, we are becoming more and more removed from that Darwinian reality. Whether that is a good thing or not is a matter of perspective. On the whole, I think it is.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I think, and maybe this has happened, but someone should write a book explaining where the Organians went. Because many events in TREK seem to happen as if there was no peace-treaty.

To my knowledge, no such book has been written, but it's a fantastic idea.

In the real world, it was convenient to ignore the Organians because the Klingon's were the most famous Trek villians and the ones that writer's most wanted to use.

I think stepping in was intervering. The galaxy, I think, is like life. The strongest survive, and the weakest lose...nature created things that way it seems...

Rob

Yes, but even now, as humanity evolves and develops new technologies, we are becoming more and more removed from that Darwinian reality. Whether that is a good thing or not is a matter of perspective. On the whole, I think it is.

yeah..I agree with that. But I can't rational how Spock argues to save them (in TUC) and Picard argues not to (Civil War.) Sure, one was a natural disaster and the other was meddling romulans, but either intervering is or isn't a violation of the prime-directive.

Rob

 

[Ward Fowler]

^But doesn't the Prime Directive only apply to pre-warp cultures?

 

[DWF]

It's hard to say. Did the Federation's decision to offer an olive branch cost the lives of Federation citizens in the future? Yes, clearly it did. Did it also save Federation lives? Yes. To decide the correctness of the decision depends on what point in time you are looking at. I guess you would have to take a really long view on whether it was worth it for the Federation. In an absolute moral sense, it was the right thing to do because otherwise the Klingon race may not have survived. Not helping would have been tantamount to genocide.

I think, and maybe this has happened, but someone should write a book explaining where the Organians went. Because many events in TREK seem to happen as if there was no peace-treaty. And did their 'control' also include control of the Romulans?

I think stepping in was intervering. The galaxy, I think, is like life. The strongest survive, and the weakest lose...nature created things that way it seems...

Rob

In the novel for Star Trek VI it says that the Organians had left and that was the reason why the Klingons were getting agressive, it also talked about the possible test of Chaing's BOP and Carol Marcus' death because of it.

 

[Ward Fowler]

In the novel for Star Trek VI it says that the Organians had left and that was the reason why the Klingons were getting agressive, it also talked about the possible test of Chaing's BOP and Carol Marcus' death because of it.

Wow, now that you mention it, I recall that. I only read the novelization once and that was 18 years ago, so it wasn't really fresh in my mind.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Carol didn't die; she was badly wounded but survived.

 

[MaxPower]

Cartwright was so wrong in his judgment. He let his personal hate of the klingons cloud his thinking. He should have known that how you treat your enemies is a reflection of who and what you are. Starfleet is bigger, better and wiser than people like Cartwright.

 

[Lightinspire]

I think the right decision was to let them live. Look at the times where the Klingon Empire came to the rescue or to help the Federation..if they were dead then none of that woudl have happened, the Federation would have short changed themselves.

 

[Pauln6]

Cartwright was so wrong in his judgment. He let his personal hate of the klingons cloud his thinking. He should have known that how you treat your enemies is a reflection of who and what you are. Starfleet is bigger, better and wiser than people like Cartwright.

The Battlestar Galactica reboot spent a whole series examining this point! It isn't a black and white debate but if you look at the mess in the middle east it should be a lot less grey than it is.