Was Beyond a commentary on how poorly the US govt. treats armed forces veterans?

[Jedi_Master]

Or am I reading too much into it?

I know that Krall was an evil guy and nothing excused his actions, but his gripe with Starfleet was legitimate, if you ask me.

Was this supposed to be a commentary about how the US has had a history of treating its armed forces veterans pretty poorly?

I don't see any such commentary. The Franklin was deemed missing with all hands. There was no indication that the man who became Krall was known to exist after the Franklin went missing, nor did his injuries or actions take place due to the inattention of Starfleet Veteran Services.

 

[gerbil]

I think that Edison's justification is more post-hoc rationalization than any coherent ideology. For one thing, it's kind of doubtful he actually saw any real action against the Xindi, and he knows good and damn well it was Starfleet that did all the important leg work in that conflict, including the final defense against the Xindi probe. It could be that he became a member of Starfleet because he knew they were better prepared to defend Earth, but in order for him to understand that he would also have to understand that Starfleet did it by getting half the Xindi fleet to change sides at the last minute.

We have Muslim allies throughout the Middle East and some westerners still can't let go of 9/11 or the other terror attacks committed by a minority of Muslims.

It's possible and even likely that he fought in the Romulan Wars, but the Federation didn't actually make peace with the Romulans (especially in light of the Kelvin incident and the destruction of Vulcan) so that can't possibly be part of his beef.

There's little for me to base this on but I imagine the Narada incident(s) led to an earlier "Balance of Terror" moment that created some sort of diplomatic relationship with the Romulans. Everyone was clearly aware of who was on the Narada both times, Uhura is familiar with the Romulans language, no one reacts with shock at the sight of Nero, and Spock references Vulcan's shared heritage with Romulans. Of course, Edison wouldn't know anything about that until after he hacked Yorktown.

She has found the on switches for them, yes.

Timo Saloniemi

What the Christ? This is so dismissive and, honestly, sexist as hell. Kirk and Scotty are amazed at what she does with the holographic camouflage and the mirror projections.

There's no room for your "little girl couldn't be that smart" condescension here. Your last posts in this thread have been consistently awful.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I find it extremely likely that Edison was a member of Terra Prime. It would explain a great many things.

I mean, sure, he can rant and rave all he likes about being forced to make peace with those he fought against, but if he was half the soldier he claimed to be, he should have known the value of following orders. If he's told to make peace, he damn well better make peace, and shut his trap about it. If he can't take those orders, he should have resigned.

The only time I ever sympathized with Edison is when he complained about being given a starship command. I'm actually wondering why Starfleet did that. What does Edison know about commanding a starship? He is a ground soldier through and through.

I mean, we know the Federation Starfleet still has ground troops (because we've seen and heard about them), so why didn't they maintain Edison in that capacity? Just give him a posting in the Starfleet Marine Corps or whatever it's called, and he would have been quite at home there.

 

[DonIago]

Given their tendencies toward rationalization, perhaps Edison and Eddington are related?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I hate to say this but I actually don't see Edison putting up with the kind of terrorism that Eddington and his ilk were known for.

Edison, in his prime, was a loyal soldier who willingly served his government. Eddington, on the other hand, was...well, Eddington.

Or, to put it another way: Edison fought for humanity; Eddington fought for himself.

 

[M'Sharak]

… your devils advocate shenanigans…

I don't know why I bother to read your posts anymore, honestly.

Whether you read @Timo's posts or not is up to you, but if you're going to respond to them, surely you can manage to address the content of his posts without taking swipes at the poster?

 

[Timo]

The nacelles were damaged? How do you know THAT?

Umm, what? It's you trying to prove that the ship was propulsively crippled and needed Jaylah's attentions to cease being so. Damage to nacelles is what one would traditionally associate with a putative crippling of the warp drive, and my argument is that Jaylah probably couldn't have done much if anything about damage to those bits.

Jaylah could, with Scotty's help. That, too, is more than could be said for you and me.

We don't really hear of Jaylah making the ship fly. After all, she asks Scotty to do that for her instead. And we don't hear or see Scotty doing anything more than having a quick look and declaring the ship flightworthy, with the caveat of those EPS bits missing and the complications on takeoff.

Sure, we can argue the ship was in pieces and these two put the pieces together. But we can also argue the opposite, taking into account

1) that Jaylah would have lacked the means and most probably the skill
2) that Scotty would have lacked the time
3) that there's no sign of the ship actually being hurt much in the first place and
4) that there are plenty of other reasons for Edison to fail to fly home with the Franklin, considering that he had numerous other spacecraft (indeed, a whole screen-filling swarm of them!) to choose from and chose none.

What the Christ? This is so dismissive and, honestly, sexist as hell.

Please refrain from bringing religion and sexism to a so far religion- and gender-neutral discussion. Or if you absolutely must define Jaylah by her boobs rather than her plot-demonstrated abilities and limitations, then please refrain from applying a double standard on what can be discussed and what not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spot261]

What the Christ? This is so dismissive and, honestly, sexist as hell. Kirk and Scotty are amazed at what she does with the holographic camouflage and the mirror projections.

There's no room for your "little girl couldn't be that smart" condescension here

I really don't read Timo's comments as sexist here, he stated "she found the on switch, yes" without any suggestion a male could in some manner have done better. He is suggesting that the systems were likely fairly simple to operate, simple enough that someone completely unfamiliar to them might readily learn how to use them merely by chancing upon the correct button.

Even this is compatible with Kirk and co. being impressed in that the application was what impressed them, not the simple fact of switching them on.

The fact that said person is female has no bearing on this and the comment would have equally been valid with a character of either gender.

 

[gerbil]

I really don't read Timo's comments as sexist here, he stated "she found the on switch, yes" without any suggestion a male could in some manner have done better. He is suggesting that the systems were likely fairly simple to operate, simple enough that someone completely unfamiliar to them might readily learn how to use them merely by chancing upon the correct button.

Even this is compatible with Kirk and co. being impressed in that the application was what impressed them, not the simple fact of switching them on.

The fact that said person is female has no bearing on this and the comment would have equally been valid with a character of either gender.

I get that Scotty's the miracle worker and the Franklin wasn't flying. However, all the on screen evidence indicates that Jaylah was incredibly talent. From the characters being surprised and impressed by her application of the holographic tech as camouflage and decoys to her innovative traps to Scotty's genuine admiration of her fixes to her helping find the fix that saves Yorktown.

All I'm seeing is handwaiving about Jaylah and credit going to Scotty. The "She found the on switch, yes" is condescending and contrary to the professed standard for the discussion: On screen evidence.

 

[Spot261]

However, all the on screen evidence indicates that Jaylah was incredibly talent. From the characters being surprised and impressed by her application of the holographic tech as camouflage and decoys to her innovative traps to Scotty's genuine admiration of her fixes to her helping find the fix that saves Yorktown.

Not in dispute, but they were impressed with how she used the tech, not the fact she managed to turn it on in the first place. Anyone can doubtless fire a phaser, using one to win a battle is another matter.

The "She found the on switch, yes" is condescending and contrary to the professed standard for the discussion: On screen evidence.

But not sexist, which is a pretty serious accusation to be made on a board full of politically active liberals.

As for onscreen evidence, that's exactly what is shown, she managed to activate certain specific bits of tactical kit. That's a far reach from saying she could potentially have understood enough of the underlying principles to then repair and fly a starship. A holoemitter may well be operated by a simple on/off mechanism, or at least controls which can be learnt by a short process of trial and error, a starship is several orders of magnitude more complex and requires you understanding what it is, how it works and why it works that way, not to mention requires extensive practical training to actually operate in practise.

In addition it requires something else Scotty had, namely a crew.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Jaylah did not just "find the on switch". She worked behind the scenes for years to tinker with and fix the various systems.

Without her engineering expertise, the Franklin would have been a pile of useless junk - surely would not have been anywhere near spaceworthy. She did most of the work to get the ship in useable condition. She just needed Scotty and crew to actually get it launched.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Jaylah did not just "find the on switch". She worked behind the scenes for years to tinker with and fix the various systems.

Without her engineering expertise, the Franklin would have been a pile of useless junk - surely would not have been anywhere near spaceworthy. She did most of the work to get the ship in useable condition. She just needed Scotty and crew to actually get it launched.

Exactly. Out of all the aliens shipwrecked on Altamid for years at a time, countless numbers of them had banded together to form little Lord of the Flies post-apocalyptic gangs to pillage the new arrivals for valuable gear. Jaylah, on the other hand, didn't run with a gang; she had defenses in place around her ship and a battle strategy combined with technology that let her completely dominate her rivals whenever she encountered them.

And yet she immediately brings Scotty back to her house. Not because he's tough and because strength in numbers of some other basic Survivor concept. She brings him back because she immediately realizes he has the engineering acumen to help get her the hell OFF this terrible planet.

Basically: Jaylah's a freaking space genius who simply doesn't have time for your Gillgans Island bullshit. She not looking for away to survive, she's got a plan for getting OFF this rock, and all she needs is a little Montgommery Scotty.

 

[gerbil]

But not sexist, which is a pretty serious accusation to be made on a board full of politically active liberals.

I agree, it is. I'm trying to tilt at windmills but setting aside all the work Jaylah had done and handing the credit to Scotty (when he admits it was a team effort) is really iffy. It may not be out-and-out sexism but it's very close to stereotypical men save the day.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ For what it's worth, Kirk was sufficiently impressed with her engineering talents and problem solving abilities that he wrote her a letter of recommendation for Starfleet Academy.

 

[gerbil]

^ For what it's worth, Kirk was sufficiently impressed with her engineering talents and problem solving abilities that he wrote her a letter of recommendation for Starfleet Academy.

Which is a great point, too!

I'm objecting to the weird tone over the last two pages which seems to suggest Jaylah may have been clever but not smart enough to create or repair her stuff on her own.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I think it's just that she needed an expert - somebody who was more familiar with the tech. She'd taken it as far as she could with little or no formal education, her own instincts, and whatever she could learn from the ship's computer, which was no small feat, considering that to do so, she had to learn a whole new language all by herself with only the computer's help.

It would be impressive that anyone made it that far, and understandable that they'd need help at a certain point, no matter whether it had been Jaylah or a guy who accomplished it.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

But not sexist, which is a pretty serious accusation to be made on a board full of politically active liberals...

Well, to be fair...

True, Scotty also gives Jaylah credit for a "marvelous job", but for all we know that's just Scotty being polite with a lass again.

... is a pretty sexist remark, since it implies that Jaylah didn't actually do anything substantial and Scotty was just patronizing her because she was female.

I probably would have mentioned it myself if it wasn't already part of an unbroken stream of argumentative nonsense.

 

[Spot261]

Well, to be fair...

... is a pretty sexist remark, since it implies that Jaylah didn't actually do anything substantial and Scotty was just patronizing her because she was female.

I probably would have mentioned it myself if it wasn't already part of an unbroken stream of argumentative nonsense.

Yeah, I'm struggling to defend that one

 

[RAMA]

Possibly a tertiary commentary. I think the main theme was about someone who couldn't adapt to change, and this can be applied to the current political landscape across the Western world. Everything in the movie on the Federation side supported the counter-idea to this theme..the fact they had such a multi-cultural crew (the most I've ever seen in a Star Trek production), Kirk's dialogue, the Yorktown station, etc

However, if you trace the origins of Krall/Edison's fate, you can easily say the experiences and training left him in such a state that it was corrupted by being "abandoned". So in effect, it is a criticism of the basis of his training that he defaulted to it in crisis. Still, there really is no accounting how isolation, injury, and abandonment might twist someone psychologically.

RAMA

Or am I reading too much into it?

I know that Krall was an evil guy and nothing excused his actions, but his gripe with Starfleet was legitimate, if you ask me.

Was this supposed to be a commentary about how the US has had a history of treating its armed forces veterans pretty poorly?

 

[Timo]

I think this is a serious case of putting the cart before the horse, is all.

The argument seems to go that Jaylah achieved incredible things because she got the ship flying when originally the ship wasn't capable of that. But none of that is established in the movie. Nowhere is it stated that the ship would have been incapable of flight, and nowhere is it established that Jaylah was the one to get the ship flying.

So we start from a clean table. And on that table we have Jaylah, who is the child of somebody who flew starships, not an operator or fixer of starships herself. She asks Scotty to fix the ship for her. Beyond that we have Scotty speaking nicely of her vs. herself being childishly ignorant of technology and impressed by the stereo set. That's a case of balancing the evidence, then. And we know how Scotty behaves around women, in at least one timeline ("lass" isn't sexist coming from him, but he has old-fashioned ideas in general).

It's too bad that we can't tell how young Jaylah was when escaping from the clutches of Krall, because the rate of aging for her species is unknown and Krall and Manas are immortal.

It is at the conclusion of these considerations that we get to decide whether we should think the Franklin was originally incapable of liftoff, or the opposite. And the considerations leave the issue neutral, or at most hanging on the balance of whether Scotty is a polite or an impolite person.

Timo Saloniemi