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Was a Rick Berman a bad choice to run the Star Trek Franchise after Gene Roddenberry died?

True enough, UPN's role in Enterprise's (and Voyager's) flaws shouldn't be overlooked. The problem was that Berman's decisions seemed to exacerbate the problems that Paramount created, rather than mitigating them - having Enterprise follow the formula of TNG and Voyager so closely might not have been a problem had there not also been things like the Vulcans acting completely out of character, a truckload of continuity flubs, and an apparent main story arc that seemed like an afterthought.


Over a decade later, on a form of media that hadn't really yet gotten off the drawing board when Enterprise was cancelled. And really, who's to say how much of that success is down to Berman (and Braga), and how much of it is due to Coto and the latter writers?

I didn’t have a problem with the way the Vulcans acted in Enterprise. If they were going to do the TNG/Voy formula they just plain needed to do it better. Everything just felt so dumbed down, like when they taught a farming colony to defend themselves against Klingon raiders by the ancient Vulcan art of ducking backward and rolling away.

That’s just plain dumb, like the intended audience was ten year olds. No adult would think that makes sense. And that’s the running theme, simplistic problems and solutions that frankly insult your intelligence.

I agree the one thing homophobes hate the most is normalizing their relationships. They’re content to see gay people just run around adorably hitting on every guy they see.
 
But damn near every Vulcan we see in the first two seasons of Enterprise is incredibly arrogant, condescending, and full of themselves ...
So was almost every Vulcan we met on TOS and later DS9. The list of non arrogant and non condescending vulcans is pretty short, even Spock and Tuvok often have an air or arrogance and they are generally likable characters.


If there had been some explanation or inference from the start of why the Vulcans were behaving so differently in the 22nd century, instead of Season 4's obvious (and yet still very good) fix-fic in the form of the Kir'Shara trilogy, it'd have been a lot less of an issue.
But even if the vulcans had behaved differently (which I still don't agree with) an explanation isn't required, the fact that it's set a century before TOS should be enough, norms in societies and views of others can change a lot in 100 years.
 
Enterprise was not without it's flaws, but majorly shifting the attitude of the vulcans - and the humans, too, from how they were portrayed in TOS and TNG was an intentional plot point. Perhaps K'Shara wasn't the originally intended resolution, but I have a hard time believing that something of that nature wasn't part of the original story treatment.
 
The arrogance made sense to me, but making mindmeld transmitted diseases into an AIDS metaphor was absurd.

They didn’t know how to do social commentary without being heavy handed.
 
I do have to say a lot of fans were overly demanding about continuity adherence especially given that there were over 500 episodes.

It's not like these issues haven't ever occurred before. Remember the series finale to "Roseanne", where the writer of the episode has Roseanne saying the second half of the TV series (all of seasons 5-9) were actually the character's fiction to justify some outlandish canon/continuity alterations. Imagine if they were to do a season 10 at the time exploring all that?

Also, Dallas the the dream sequence thing. People got upset. Is it unfair to blame them?

Not to mention the bestest example of all time: Martin from "V". He gets killed off, then his reintroduction is -- little got more contrived and quickly debunked than that, especially since it upended the reason why the Visitors all wore human suits to begin with... Why would an identical twin lizard-like being need to have the same human skin outfit? That aside, how they'd kill off Frank Ashmore's character to begin with was far dumber... but the TV series, and even the second miniseries, absconded with enough canon set in the original and enough in the audience stopped watching because of that. Many stayed, but there is a legitimate argument about the need for canon and continuity, and not be so willy nilly to wave a magic wand for whatever story-changing excuse every 5 minutes. Which might be why the pacing of storytelling has increased over the decades, to shroud some of the plot holes and other problems... (it is, not all of my babbling isn't based on random thoughts, I'll include some token links at the end of this novella...)

Or Romeo and Juliet where Romeo fakes his death and then went off in his time machine and then married Juliet's mom for that sequel everyone was clamoring for.

Usually, such narrative structure, execution, and when or why to make such paradigm shifts seems needed to keep a long-running story going. The risk is doing too much or forcing something that feels artificial, or creates so many plot holes and problems that it ends up feeling fake. IMHO, YMMV, but nobody cared about continuity and canon in the 1960s. As storytelling grew as with so many shows getting sequels, it was inevitable this sort of thing would happen. One needn't know all the behind-the-scenes issues to see how television did develop and expand on this very thing, or even taking old episodes and trying to tie them together with continuity. It didn't always work...

Being a long-term fan of something only exacerbates this, that newer fans won't have ingrained.

Starting a new show from scratch where they can and do worldbuilding without issue also happens - until they run into the same problems...

Just my two cents, YMMV, but eventually making a show where the character states they can't eat gluten will later being a glutton for gluten is going to be more questionable in any series that isn't a sitcom. A fun side-note, look at Amy Farrah-Fowler from "The Big Bang Theory" and how she was all over the map in her first two or three seasons... was it really "character growth" (yet another fun tangent to all this "peanut gallery fluff") or the makers having an idea but not being too sure and upon finding something that got mass appeal moved confidently in that direction instead? (not bad for a sitcom... ) Or, perhaps, a bit of both? What do the audience members look for when watching a story unfold?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PacingProblems
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertain...he-worst-plot-holes-in-tv-history/ss-BB1dxH0u
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave
etc

All this is inevitable and even with as many plot holes and canononical gaffes, it doesn't always stop the show from being fun. A lot of us nitpick for fun and/or because we like the show, and not out of hate. If so, those TV Tropes people need to be medicated because the level of hate just oozin' there must be remarkable. :devil:

But, when all is said and done, is canon really a creation of its viewing audience base?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Canon and https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CanonDefilement
(read on and find out :D.... and knowing that site and how it branches into tangential links, expect to be there for two weeks... :biggrin:)
 
But even if the vulcans had behaved differently (which I still don't agree with) an explanation isn't required, the fact that it's set a century before TOS should be enough, norms in societies and views of others can change a lot in 100 years.
I mean, both a cultural difference but also a far more simple explanation-Vulcans are far more experienced than humanity out in space. They are aware and are basically watching a young race demand to be treated as an equal in interstellar politics.
 
Yes!

Berman and Braga should have been dumped when Voyager was about to start.

The two of them did a good job with TNG, I must admit that. But they had begin to lose inspiration and ideas already when Voyager started. The writing had become erratic and sloppy and they didn't care about the constant flaws which occurred from time to time.

Which was sad because Voyager had great characters and a wonderful concept. it could have been much better with new and inspired writers who could have made something extraordinary out of it, like the staff of Deep Space Nine did with that show.
 
Given that the Temporal Cold War was only mentioned in about a half-dozen episodes of the first season (and only very cursorily in most of those cases), it makes you wonder if Berman and/or Braga approached it with the same mentality that TNG did with the Q story arc - something they put heavy emphasis on in the pilot, but then only revisited once or twice per season.
On that note, Q was another afterthought on TNG. That is, Encounter at Farpoint was originally only supposed to be about the mystery of Farpoint station and the revelation that there was a captive space jellyfish when another space jellyfish shows up to rescue its mate. It wasn't until the studio requested a ninety minute premiere and Roddenberry and the writers realized there was no way to pad the Farpoint story out to ninety minutes that they came up with the Q storyline in order to fill up the ninety minutes. Even then, they still had to pad things out which is why there was such a lengthy sequence dedicated to preparing for the saucer separation, the saucer separation and later the rejoining.
 
On that note, Q was another afterthought on TNG. That is, Encounter at Farpoint was originally only supposed to be about the mystery of Farpoint station and the revelation that there was a captive space jellyfish when another space jellyfish shows up to rescue its mate. It wasn't until the studio requested a ninety minute premiere and Roddenberry and the writers realized there was no way to pad the Farpoint story out to ninety minutes that they came up with the Q storyline in order to fill up the ninety minutes.

I'm so glad that the trial of humanity was added to the plot, the trial gives the entire series some sort of meaning from first episode to the last.
 
On that note, Q was another afterthought on TNG. That is, Encounter at Farpoint was originally only supposed to be about the mystery of Farpoint station and the revelation that there was a captive space jellyfish when another space jellyfish shows up to rescue its mate. It wasn't until the studio requested a ninety minute premiere and Roddenberry and the writers realized there was no way to pad the Farpoint story out to ninety minutes that they came up with the Q storyline in order to fill up the ninety minutes. Even then, they still had to pad things out which is why there was such a lengthy sequence dedicated to preparing for the saucer separation, the saucer separation and later the rejoining.
Stupid studio.
 
Here's my take: TNG was flawed from the very beginning for reasons that have nothing to do with Rick Berman. I watched the first couple seasons of Hill Street Blues a while back. Despite the fact that it was made in the early 80s, it featured a diverse ensemble of realistically-drawn characters, adult situations, and storylines that carried over from episode to episode--you know, all that stuff that 1980s TV executives supposedly thought that audiences were too stupid to handle. And it was a hit. When TNG was announced I imagine there were lots of fans who hoped the new show would adopt this more sophisticated type of storytelling.

Instead it went the A-Team/Knight Rider route: strictly episodic, formulaic adventures with more broadly-drawn characters who didn't change much. Even worse, Gene Roddenberry instituted all kinds of inconsistent rules about how "evolved" 24th century people should behave. While he was still actively working on the show, these rules were mostly unwritten and enforced by him on a case-by-case basis.

All this stuff was in play when Rick Berman got there. For his part, Berman didn't really understand or even particularly like Star Trek. But eventually he became the guy responsible for keeping it going. Because he never truly understood why Star Trek worked in the first place, he didn't really try to innovate. He was obviously scared of killing the golden Star Trek goose.

We shouldn't overlook Michael Piller's contribution, either. Although he did a lot to flesh out TNG's characters and clean up the wreckage of the first 2 seasons, he also codified Gene's ideas about evolved 24th century behavior into hard-and-fast rules. As a result, we started to see a lot more technobabble mystery plots--indeed, that soon became the standard Star Trek plot format.

And as other folks have pointed out, on Voyager and Enterprise Rick Berman and the writers had to take notes from the same UPN executives who guided that network to absolutely no success over its short lifespan.
 
All this stuff was in play when Rick Berman got there. For his part, Berman didn't really understand or even particularly like Star Trek. But eventually he became the guy responsible for keeping it going. Because he never truly understood why Star Trek worked in the first place, he didn't really try to innovate. He was obviously scared of killing the golden Star Trek goose.
This much is very clear. And the codified rules became more and more inflexible as the studio interfered more, wanting to keep things stable.
Q having to be created was a time studio interference was for the better.
How so? It pretty much went against a lot of TOS attitudes supposedly godlike beings and basically had the heroes willing to play the games for the sake of Q's amusement.
 
How so? It pretty much went against a lot of TOS attitudes supposedly godlike beings and basically had the heroes willing to play the games for the sake of Q's amusement.
Yeah, Q was one of Gene's favorite tropes: the "godlike being" that our characters must defeat. Basically he was just a vehicle for Gene to preach his views about religion to the audience. On the page Q is a really dumb, one-note character. John de Lancie's performance really elevated the material.
 
I think there was a little too much Trek in the 90s with two shows going at once. They may have stretched themselves too thin. TNG had great success when Berman was in charge so I'll give him credit for that.
 
No, Berman was the right choice at the right time. But he probably should have left when DS9 ended and talks of a prequel series began. And its not because the prequel series was ENT, since I remember that there was an idea for an Excelsior series starring Sulu that was floating around the same time too.

Berman was heavily based in the 24th century for Star Trek, and telling a prequel Trek story in the 22nd century or late 23rd/early 24th required a new pair of eyes and a fresh set of ideas, not someone that was stuck in their ways. Not to mention the lingering and, at times, annoying issues relating to continuity when producing a prequel show.

Plus, if the studios only care that the product is of good quality and only get involved because they think their ideas would make the show better, then what does that say about UPN involvement in VOY and ENT? Did they not think that what was being produced or the ideas being thrown around weren’t good, thus necessitating their interference?

Something else I noticed about the Berman era… the show themes get more subdued and soothing the further along the Berman era progressed (DS9, VOY, Archer’s theme for ENT). They are a far cry from the TOS and TNG themes which are more vibrant and upbeat, and clearly have an energy behind them. That energy from TOS & TNG is something that DIS had managed to replicate for its theme. One of the few very good things that DIS has done. Music in Trek started to sound the same for the most part during the Berman era. It was mistake to get rid of Ron Jones.

As for the attitudes towards women - Roddenberry era had miniskirts, Berman era had catsuits and decon chambers, Abrams era had women standing in their underwear for no reason. Kurtzman era seems to be the only one that different…so far (unless I’ve missed something). Berman should have definitely treated Farrell better though, and should have had her come back for the mirror universe episode in S7, or for that DS9-VOY crossover than never happened.

LGBT, yes there should have been greater efforts during the Berman era to have at least one character. When the lead of one of your show’s presses for one, and thinks there will be such a character in the next series and it doesn’t happen, that’s on you and no one else.

ENT having a heteronormative crew both was and was not a sign of the times; the culture at the time was getting more conservative all while LGBT characters were featured on major tv hits. If there were LGBT crewmembers on the Enterprise, then they were:

1) Among the 8-9 crewman that left the NX-01 before the Xindi mission :whistle:

or

2) Among the 27 crewman that died during the Xindi mission :barf2::barf:

leaving a hetero crew by the time of "Bound".

Then there’s the case of Ensign Massaro, due to that one time T’Pol referred to Massaro as a “her” instead of the usual “him” in S3. Which, if overlooked as a mistake, then in canon it suggests that either:

a) That reference was about a potential wife of Massaro
b) That reference was about a potential sister/cousin/other relative of Massaro
c) That reference was about Massaro, meaning Massaro was genderfluid

And considering the general lack of development of both the character and that character’s personal life, and what happens to the Massaro character at the end of ENT, that was not the best representation of a genderfluid character, if Massaro was supposed to be one at all. So, the Berman era was a failure in regards to serious LGBT representation.

Overall, Berman was good for Trek in the 90s, but should have handed the reigns to someone new in the early ‘00s who could adapt to the shifting tv culture.
 
Something else I noticed about the Berman era… the show themes get more subdued and soothing the further along the Berman era progressed (DS9, VOY, Archer’s theme for ENT). They are a far cry from the TOS and TNG themes which are more vibrant and upbeat, and clearly have an energy behind them. That energy from TOS & TNG is something that DIS had managed to replicate for its theme. One of the few very good things that DIS has done. Music in Trek started to sound the same for the most part during the Berman era. It was mistake to get rid of Ron Jones.

As for the attitudes towards women - Roddenberry era had miniskirts, Berman era had catsuits and decon chambers, Abrams era had women standing in their underwear for no reason. Kurtzman era seems to be the only one that different…so far (unless I’ve missed something). Berman should have definitely treated Farrell better though, and should have had her come back for the mirror universe episode in S7, or for that DS9-VOY crossover than never happened.

LGBT, yes there should have been greater efforts during the Berman era to have at least one character. When the lead of one of your show’s presses for one, and thinks there will be such a character in the next series and it doesn’t happen, that’s on you and no one else.

Have thoughts on these paragraphs.

Not sure if you're aware or if you just noticed on your own but Berman at one point said something to the effect that he wanted ST music to be "wallpaper" for the show and that was the directive to everyone scoring episodes. So yes, the music got very dull once you moved into the mid TNG years when he was really running things. Really just don't understand.

The Seven thing was corny because everything else on the show was still the sexless, beige world of TNG but then they introduced this well endowed woman in a skin tight catsuit. On Enterprise there was a broad attempt to sex up the show, you had Archer and Trip doing shirtless scenes and getting sweaty in decon as well. You can still say it was a cheap attempt to generate interest in a mostly mediocre show, but the sexism argument really doesn't fly there. Same type deal with TOS, you had miniskirts but also Shatner's shirt ripping all the time, Montalban's man cleavage, and so on.

Can't really defend Berman on the gay stuff. Even before TNG came on Roddenberry said he wanted gay characters on the new show and Berman got many pitches for them over the years all of which he rejected often for flimsy reasons. IDK if it was his personal attitudes or if he just didn't take the risk. But gay characters became pretty common on TV in the late 90's so there's no reason they couldn't have had one late on Ds9/Voyager or on Enterprise. It really would not have been a big deal.
 
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