Warpath Discussion Thread (major, major spoilers)

[Yassim]

Bobatiel said:

As for the revelation that Taran'atar's mind-controlled somehow undermining or simplifying his character arc, I don't agree. On the contrary, I think it adds more depth to it.

Agreed. if anything it complicates this matter.

Really?

Not to whinge, but I don't see it. When I thought he was a Jem'Hadar pushed past his breaking point by tolerating diversity, by taking orders from lesser beings, by seeing his gods humiliated, by the breakdown of discipline caused by sleeping and dreaming for the first time... I thought that was character development.

As for being radio controlled... I don't see how that develops him as a character - but I'd like to hear thoughts about that. What did you enjoy about it?

(disclaimer - I hate to whinge while the author's reading. Enjoyed the book and everything else of Mack's that I've read)

 

[Rat Boy]

So who was the corpse that the Obsidian Order had in "Second Skin?" A fake?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

^Corpse? I admit I haven't seen "Second Skin" in years, but I don't remember any corpse in it.

Babaganoosh said:
Okay. I think I got it. So one of these 'alternate Intendants' is actually the MU Iliana? (since apparently the RU Iliana is the 'Cardassian Woman') Which one?

That's exactly how I've thought of it when I read the final chapter. It wasn't until I read reviews here did the thought a third universe come up and I balked at that suggestion. A friend IRL thinks it's a third universe and won't listen to my theory.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Emh said:
^Corpse? I admit I haven't seen "Second Skin" in years, but I don't remember any corpse in it.

There wasn't one.

There is the question of what happened to the 'real' Iliana, but they never found her. For all they knew, she was still out there somewhere.

(fun fact: the original version of this episode was to have Kira really be Iliana...)

 

[Turtletrekker]

They beamed in a body that looked liked Kira's in order to convince her that the real Kira was dead. Probably just some poor Bajoran woman altered to look like Kira.

 

[Christopher]

Yassim said:
As for being radio controlled... I don't see how that develops him as a character - but I'd like to hear thoughts about that. What did you enjoy about it?

That's just it, he isn't "radio controlled." He's under a programmed imperative to obey, just as he always was (remember, obedience to the Founders is written into his very genes) -- but now he's been reprogrammed to obey someone he hates obeying rather than someone he's happy to obey. And because he still has the ability to think and evaluate his own actions, that's forcing him to question the obedience to the Founders that he's always seen as a virtue -- to recognize that maybe absolute obedience isn't all that wonderful and that maybe he was a slave all along.

 

[Yassim]

Christopher said:
now he's been reprogrammed to obey someone he hates obeying rather than someone he's happy to obey. And because he still has the ability to think and evaluate his own actions, that's forcing him to question the obedience to the Founders that he's always seen as a virtue -- to recognize that maybe absolute obedience isn't all that wonderful and that maybe he was a slave all along.

Interesting... I guess I can see that down the line for him.

I would still like (have liked?) to see him remain alien in his beliefs. Part of what makes an episode like Rocks and Shoals great is how, up close, the Jem'Hadar are just as alien as from afar. They'd rather die than give up their faith.

And part of what was interesting about the Prophets was that the show never came down and definitively said, yes, they're aliens, or no, they're gods. They left them in a realm where both beliefs remained possible. While clearly the Founders are not gods, the belief must be at least slightly viable - it's the foundation of their empire, and lasted thousands of years. Quark and T had a great conversation where the depth of T's belief was clear.

I guess I have to admit, I was pretty sure that Taran'atar had reached the point where he had realized that he could no longer live with himself in the Alpha Quadrant - that with his wavering discipline, surrounded by enemies, he was being asked to adapt beyond his ability. I picked up Warpath to learn how the character was going to be saved, if at all, because he seemed doomed and unredeemable.

I thought the mind control side-stepped all that. If it does lead to soul searching on his part, I hope he doesn't end up realizing that we Fed citizens were right all along and that deep down, he's just like us.

So I guess my expectations were to blame here - never assume, as the saying goes.

 

[David Mack]

^ The fact that he was enslaved by someone other than his original masters does not "side-step" the psychological trauma that he is enduring. It is merely the catalyst for it, the impetus to begin a critical self-examination that, up until now, he has never had a reason to undertake.

Anyway, that's my opinion .... but I'm just the writer.

 

[Yassim]

I thought that he had all the impetus he needed already.

Not to say that it doesn't work both ways - I just feel a little like I ordered the chicken, and I got the beef. No one's fault but mine, but I wondered if anyone else felt the same way.

Or if someone else got my chicken by mistake.

But hey, if I wanted the books to play out exactly as I expect, I'd write them myself... I could even act them out...

it's late - I'm going to bed.

 

[Arpy]

^ I agree. I was dissapointed initially (would he go right back to worshipping the Founders later without question) but that his being controlled is in fact a catalyst for his questioning everything I think is a great idea.

Afterall, as Taran'atar says himself, it wasn't that he was unaware of "free will" and other philosophies in the past, but his conditioning always kept them a distant abstract.

Now his consideration of these people and their ways (his [holy] mission) is even more urgent for him (he's got to fast track it) and all the more tumultuous (it's now about his very soul) and complex (Founders, free will, or OTHER gods?!).

 

[David Mack]

Yassim said:
I just feel a little like I ordered the chicken, and I got the beef.

Have you considered the possibility that you were actualy served a chicken-fried steak? Mmm-good, that chicken-fried steak . . .

 

[Bobatiel]

Christopher said:

Yassim said:
As for being radio controlled... I don't see how that develops him as a character - but I'd like to hear thoughts about that. What did you enjoy about it?

That's just it, he isn't "radio controlled." He's under a programmed imperative to obey, just as he always was (remember, obedience to the Founders is written into his very genes) -- but now he's been reprogrammed to obey someone he hates obeying rather than someone he's happy to obey. And because he still has the ability to think and evaluate his own actions, that's forcing him to question the obedience to the Founders that he's always seen as a virtue -- to recognize that maybe absolute obedience isn't all that wonderful and that maybe he was a slave all along.

Is it known exactly when he came under the influence of the evil Kira/Illiana Ghemor?

I'm thinking Taran'atar may be facing two devastating psychological events at once.

1) His "sudden revelation" about free will after meeting the female shape shifter in prison. She planted many doubts in his smind. She essentially provided him with a catalyst for his release from founder obedience, which, as pointed out earlier, is programmed into him. What a conflict that is in itself.

2) The external mind control as revelead later in Warpath.

If both are going on at the same time, and if both are independant of each other, then it does indeed complicate matters because there's no way to tell what his state of mind will be once this finally plays out. How exactly will 1) affect 2) and vice versa.

Great,great stuff.

 

[Bobatiel]

Yassim said:
... I was pretty sure that Taran'atar had reached the point where he had realized that he could no longer live with himself in the Alpha Quadrant - that with his wavering discipline, surrounded by enemies, he was being asked to adapt beyond his ability. I picked up Warpath to learn how the character was going to be saved, if at all, because he seemed doomed and unredeemable.

I thought the mind control side-stepped all that...

So I guess my expectations were to blame here - never assume, as the saying goes.

On the contrary. I think it's rather genius how this all plays out to the reader. We pretty much witness these events from the perspective of the characters in the story. They don't know what's going on with Taran'atar, so neither do we. (Nor does Taran'atar for that matter)

As the layers are slowly peeled back and a little more is revealed, we come to realize that this is more complicated and ambiguous than we might have thought at first. We have no definitive answers as of yet. Genius, I tell ya!

Kudos to Marco and the writers.

 

[David Mack]

Thankee kindly.

 

[RTOlson]

First, I've read this entire thread and no one has mentioned the total "Kill Bill" vibe as the bounty hunters tried to intercept and defeat the Cardassian Woman. Is it just me or were there homages to those films (or some other film that Tarantino was probably inspired by)?

I loved this dose of Deep Space Nine reading the book in two sittings -- once during my lunch break and then into the wee hours of the morning. It was a pretty solid read with very vivid imagry. I could picture the novel unfolding in mental 3D. The characters seemed to be depicted well -- Vaughn's rage at Prynn's death is understandable given their histories, Taran'atar's doubts about his role in the universe and the personal moments between the crew aboard the station.

With the Orb sequences, I got a eerie feeling that they foretold of characters' deaths. I would be interested in seeing those who fell during the visions will perish in real life. I'll need to re-read it because there's probably a ton of stuff that I missed.

At the end of the Worlds of Deep Space Nine, I thought it seemed too simplistic for mystery woman to be the Intendent especially because Marco, et. al. are really good at throwing curve balls. I thought I knew who Cardassian Woman was almost instantly, but there were a lot of change-ups as the novel reached its rousing cliffhanger.

For random speculation while we all wait for the next thrilling installment, I'm guessing the Orb fragment will be used to create the Farnsworth Parabox in order to create the DS9-Futurama crossover everyone has been anticipating. I'm also guessing Havath-prime will be alive (if only because I feel for the poor guy and would like him to survive). That, and the fact it would be nice for _someone_ in the universe to know what's going on.

 

[Christopher]

"Good news, everybody! I'm technically still alive!"

 

[David Mack]

Thanks, RTOlson, I'm glad you enjoyed it. As for the Kill Bill vibe, it wasn't intentional. The similarity in tone might be due to the fact that a shared inspiration for that film and the Cardassian Woman's storyline in Warpath was the classic revenge model, with a dash of ronin (lordless samurai) vs. ninja thrown in.

 

[frkcd]

I just read all 7 pages of the discussion for Warpath. Often I don't have (or make the time) to go through this much material, but I'm glad I did. Many posts were helpful and thought provoking: I'm afraid to admit I really "missed the boat." I'm going to refer to various comments in trying to examine my own reaction and thoughts.

(First off, I do rate books...well, Trek books, anyway, on a scale of 1 to 10. This I do for the guy who runs Star Trek Novel Rankings. I have found the site useful and hope others will, too.)

At first, I loved what was unfolding. My high expectations were being exceeded. Overall, I liked the Kira story--on the operating table and both with the prophets and in the distant past--and was very intrigued by the Cardassian Woman and the mercenaries who were contracted to assassinate her. I was thrilled when I saw the title of chapter 4: The Alternate Universe--Kalandra Sector. Vaughn chasing Prynn had its moments, especially once we landed on Harkoum.

After a while, though, I found myself feeling...hm...not quite bored but with less enthusiasm than I started. I kept thinking I should be enjoying this more than I was. A Time To Heal and A Time To Kill were phenomenal, so I already knew that Mr. Mack was a talented author and a great storyteller.

I'm not sure at what point my feelings shifted, but I believe it was about the time I learned that Taran'atar's actions were being manipulated by someone else--the Intendant. I dig the Intendant and the MU, but I didn't like this plot point, and I wasn't sure why.

Various posters' thoughts and reactions really helped me give words to what was difficult to describe.

Yassim, reading your post about your disappointment helped me identify why I didn't like the above-mentioned plot point. I realized that I was caught up in Taran'atar's turmoil caused by the increasing dissonance he experienced between his raison d’être and everything he was experiencing that challenged this. To find out he was being influenced by someone else was, as Sisko Is My Captain put it, "like a deus ex machina."

Then, I read Christopher's post.

"This sequence of events, where he finds himself forced to obey someone he doesn't want to rather than obeying the beings he wants to serve, forces him to question that obedience, to recognize that he has been essentially a slave, in a way that a simple obedience-to-Founders-vs.-freedom dichotomy never could have. Forcing Taran'atar into a different state of obedience, an undesirable one, is a more potent and believable way of giving him a true crisis of faith and identity."

As I said above: I missed the boat. Christopher's elucidation of what is occurring for Taran'atar made a huge difference in how I am thinking about the novel now, and I agree with his assessment.

And like Arpy posts, "...his being controlled is in fact a catalyst for his questioning everything I think is a great idea."

Because the ending was such a pleasant surprise (enthusiastic cheers: Brava!) and the prior scene of Vaughn sacrificing himself for Prynn was unexpected and moved me to tears, I closed the book with a rating of 7, which I define as Very Good. Perhaps, I'll raise this upon giving more thought to what I've read posted.

Looking forward to Fearful Summons!

Donnie

 

[Christopher]

frkcd said:
Looking forward to Fearful Summons!

I take it you mean Fearful Symmetry. The Fearful Summons was a 1995 TOS novel by Denny Martin Flynn (co-scripter for ST VI).

 

[David Mack]

frkcd said:
I'm not sure at what point my feelings shifted, but I believe it was about the time I learned that Taran'atar's actions were being manipulated by someone else--the Intendant.

Except that she isn't the one who was controlling Taran'atar . . . the DS9 crew was merely misled into believing that she was (and, for a time, the reader is meant to be misled as well). But as the ending should clearly have demonstrated, the Intendant was never in control of Taran'atar -- she only thought that she was.