Warpath Discussion Thread (major, major spoilers)

[Arpy]

- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SPOILERS! -

Questions:

1.) So Jamin is Benjamin and Shirab Bashir - who were the others?

2.) Was it made clear why the orb fragment from the Sidau village is necessary?

3.) Mirror sirah was the mutliverse-transporter's engineer, but what happened to our universe's sirah?

4.) Were the Intendant and Iliana in cahoots? The Intendant seemed to think Iliana was our Kira, but then how did Iliana know so much about the Intendant's plans for the multiverse-transporter and Taran'atar's conditioning? Was it Iliana's in with the Intendant's Vulcan handmaiden?

5.) Why didn't Taran'atar attack Iliana as he did the Intendant? The Intendant seemed to think he was under her control just as he was under Iliana's.

6.) How did Iliana (a Bajoran civilian, for all she knew) get involved with the arch-duchess(!) of the Mirror Universe(!)?

7.) Does Iliana know she's a screwed-over Cardassian plant? Has she decided to be the multiverse's One Kira Nerys anyway?

8.)Marco, will the Shatnerverse's continuity effect future Mirror Universe stories? How about the Dark Passions Duology?

9.) Someone above wondered if "The Cardassian Woman" was Palandine. Any plans to see characters from A Stitch in Time again?

[Quick] Comments:

I liked the LOTR-like aspects of the story. Although I never read any of the originals, I couldn't get enough of ancient Bajor...these people have been around for, what, 500,000 years?! I want to know what happened during all that time? Why aren't they "Iconians" by now?

Hallowed are the Ascendants! I don't mind these similarities (too much) because a) I want to know what the deal is with the Ori too, and b) I'm curious how these warring chaotists (B5 Shadows!) play out...Ori, Shadows, Ascendants, all as intriguing as Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians.

Loved the small Klingon scout - more ships dammit! D-5's have been around "since [my] grandfather was in di-ha-pers"! Romulans use warbirds for everything from ship-of-the-line to travel-pod!

Loved the bounty hunters - although I don't think we need that kind of scum. Ditto the use of pre-established humanoids - ratio to non-humanoids has to go down IMHO. Glad to see more of Klingon society...the disdain for mercenaries, that Klingons ones exist anyway, and this Klingon dog happened to be a woman.

Also liked the Chalnoth...his liking Harkoum more than the other worlds he'd been on (reminded me of a cross between [ne]Ferious Prime and Tatooine - they can keep it!), his use of narcotics (not enough of those in Trek), and his overall dumb depraved thuggishness. This villain wasn't an honorable warrior, a strategic mastermind, or commanding a grand fleet.

The Nausicann too wasn't your regular "play, dom-jot, hu-man" bully. Only regret is there wasn't a line about him opening his tri-pronged mandibles...always wanted to see then do that.

Loved the Andorian, Efrosian, Caitian, Human, Tiburonian, crew the Chalnoth offed. Like a mini-UN. And I was really pissed at how casually that bastard killed them. These are PEOPLE for chrissake. Glad he got his, but I'd really rather have seen him rehabilitated in New Zealand and regretting it all the rest of his days...his end was quick and filled with respect for peer.

Crap, gotta go. More later.

 

[Christopher]

Arpy said:
1.) So Jamin is Benjamin and Shirab Bashir - who were the others?

Nathech is an anagram of Ch'Thane, i.e. Shar. Ghavun is an anagram of Vaughn. Renla is (Ro) Laren. Jamin's mount, Denigarro, is an anagram of Rio Grande. Kira's mount is Jayol; I think there was a runabout Yolja introduced in an earlier novel.

2.) Was it made clear why the orb fragment from the Sidau village is necessary?

Not in this book. It's presumably part of whatever's being built to in the next book(s).

3.) Mirror sirah was the mutliverse-transporter's engineer, but what happened to our universe's sirah?

I think he was killed.

4.) Were the Intendant and Iliana in cahoots? The Intendant seemed to think Iliana was our Kira, but then how did Iliana know so much about the Intendant's plans for the multiverse-transporter and Taran'atar's conditioning? Was it Iliana's in with the Intendant's Vulcan handmaiden?

5.) Why didn't Taran'atar attack Iliana as he did the Intendant? The Intendant seemed to think he was under her control just as he was under Iliana's.

I think he was really under Iliana's control all along. We and the DS9 crew just thought it was the Intendant. It was also Iliana, I believe, in Fragments and Omens. Okay, true, the Intendant did seem to know about Taran'atar and was prepared for his arrival; maybe Iliana set her up through some other channels? Now that I think about it, I'm not sure.

I liked the LOTR-like aspects of the story. Although I never read any of the originals, I couldn't get enough of ancient Bajor...these people have been around for, what, 500,000 years?! I want to know what happened during all that time? Why aren't they "Iconians" by now?

There's a lot of inconsistency in what we've been told about Bajor over the years. TNG said they'd been civilized since "before humans walked upright," which the Okudachron interprets as half a million years (but that's anthropologically erroneous since hominids have been fully erect for 4-5 million years). But B'hala was supposed to be an early civilization at 20,000 years ago, and "Explorers" established that their early space age was only 800 years before the series. I think it's quite likely that Bajoran civilization has been through a number of rises and falls, that there have been a number of different, separate civilizations that have come and gone.

Anyway, there's no law that says a society has to advance at a set rate, or that any civilization that's X centuries old must be at X level of advancement. If you look at the full swath of Earth history, the norm for any civilization is stability and gradual change, and the kind of rapid progress we're experiencing now is an exception, not the rule. Call it punctuated equilibrium, like in evolution. Societies generally only enter periods of rapid progress when the right environmental, social, political and economic factors all line up. China could've had an industrial revolution in the 11th century, but it didn't because it had no economic incentive for it and no cultural/political support for it. England did have the incentive and the cultural climate, as well as the mineral resources and the easy access to seas and waterways, so it did industrialize. If those factors hadn't aligned when they did, we might still be pre-industrial today, and for hundreds or thousands of years more. Heck, if the climate hadn't changed 14,000 years ago and forced people to look for other subsistence strategies than hunting and gathering, we wouldn't even have developed agriculture yet, because we wouldn't have had the incentive to.

Bajor, at least the post-Prophet Bajoran civilization which dates back 30,000 years or more, seems to be a rather introspective, spiritual civilization, rather than a material one. That suggests they wouldn't have had much incentive to develop industrial technology and spaceflight at a very rapid pace. Also their traditional d'jarra/caste system would've impeded the kind of economic mobility and interaction between inventors, merchants and power elites that facilitates the emergence of industrialization.

 

[Arpy]

Christopher said:

Arpy said:
1.) So Jamin is Benjamin and Shirab Bashir - who were the others?

Nathech is an anagram of Ch'Thane, i.e. Shar. Ghavun is an anagram of Vaughn. Renla is (Ro) Laren. Jamin's mount, Denigarro, is an anagram of Rio Grande. Kira's mount is Jayol; I think there was a runabout Yolja introduced in an earlier novel.

Great, now I have to go back and reread those parts. No seriously, great(!), now I have to reread them. [Anakin]Yipee![/Anakin]

3.) Mirror sirah was the mutliverse-transporter's engineer, but what happened to our universe's sirah?

I think he was killed.

But wasn't he captured? Why not just beam up the bracelet and firebomb the entire village - him included?

A few more comments: loved the whole "walk the path" and "hand of the prophets" thing. Ditto Sisko's "right hand" comment, and how his prophet manifestation spoke a little more coherently...less Kosh. Don't want to say too much, given some folks are still figuring it out, but I'm looking forward to the arc.

Question though about the coming Ascendants: wasn't Bajor promised a golden age, a thousand years of peace following the Emissary's victory?

Request - can we get an Eav-oq on a future cover? What can I say, I like non-humanoids. Also, given the Bajorans and Eav-oq appeared in Kira's vision as they really look, are these Ascendants humanoids with firy golden eyes and glossy exoskeletons? What do "fluted" eyes look like? The fire-fetish - have the Ascendants misinturpreted the will of the Prophets or are they following the Pah-wraiths? Which of the three peoples is following the true way of the prophets? If it's the Bajorans in the middle ground, should the Ascendants and Eav-oq cancel each other out? Aaahrg, too many questions! April/'07, my eye! I'm invoking my constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment. First Moore and nBSG returning in October and now this? The line must be drawn heah!

Christopher, marvelous job on Orion's Hounds. The cozmozoans were a dream come true. The alien crew of the Titan...just...thanks.

 

[Christopher]

Arpy said:

3.) Mirror sirah was the mutliverse-transporter's engineer, but what happened to our universe's sirah?

I think he was killed.

But wasn't he captured? Why not just beam up the bracelet and firebomb the entire village - him included?

I just reviewed Fragments and Omens, and the fate of Hovath (the Sirah) was left ambiguous. His last scene ended with the mystery woman's (Iliana's?) weapon to his head, but with the implication that he wasn't going to be killed immediately, that his troubles weren't over yet. So maybe we'll learn his fate in Fearful Symmetry.

A few more comments: loved the whole "walk the path" and "hand of the prophets" thing. Ditto Sisko's "right hand" comment, and how his prophet manifestation spoke a little more coherently...less Kosh.

I think that's because it wasn't a Prophet manifestation -- it actually was Sisko. The wormhole is timeless, so the fact that Sisko was in it for a certain length of time means that he was always in it and always will be. Much like Guinan in the Nexus, only more so.

Question though about the coming Ascendants: wasn't Bajor promised a golden age, a thousand years of peace following the Emissary's victory?

This is sort of speculative, so I'll spoiler it:

Spoiler

I suspect the real conflict will parallel what happened in Kira's vision. Remember, the Bajora weren't defending their own fortress; they were standing with the Eav'oq at Idran, defending it from the Ascendants. I think the conflict with the Ascendants will take place in the Idran system, not at Bajor.

Christopher, marvelous job on Orion's Hounds. The cozmozoans were a dream come true. The alien crew of the Titan...just...thanks.

Thank you!

 

[Bobatiel]

Christopher said:
I have to admit that in Kira's vision scenes, I totally failed to catch on that her "generals" were doppelgangers of the main cast until the part where Kira was back in her own self and saw the vision from the outside, recognizing that "Jamin" was a ringer for Sisko. I missed the anagrams too.

Darn. I missed that too. I enjoyed the coma scenes and found them quite useful in refershing my memeory of the Eav'oq and Acendants. It helped keep those elements of the entire post finale arc to the forefront. The fact that it continues what we saw in Horn and Ivory (an outstading story), coupled with Sisko's "right arm" remark, we're getting glimpses of something really big as far as kira is concerend. I'm enjoying this character arc.

As for the revelation that Taran'atar's mind-controlled somehow undermining or simplifying his character arc, I don't agree. On the contrary, I think it adds more depth to it.

Agreed. if anything it complicates this matter. Who knows, perhaps a new found free will be the "bad guy's" undoing. I'm likin' this too.

Loved the prominence of the Bowers character. (Being a firefighter I couldn't help but chuckle at the half shaven face. Now we just gotta see him get caught in the shower or on the toilet) Bowers' standing up to Vaughn was a very well executed scene so much so that it completely avoided the cliche that one might expect from such a scene.

Two aspects that didn't work for me were Vaughn's assumption that his daughter was dead, and the falling on the Klingon ship rescue.

I was genuinely shocked when Vaughn let go. I just wished for a rescue more to my liking.

Warpath is an excellent read.

 

[David Mack]

^ Thanks for your comments. Glad you enjoyed it, for the most part.

Best,
Dave

 

[Christopher]

Bobatiel said:
Loved the prominence of the Bowers character. (Being a firefighter I couldn't help but chuckle at the half shaven face....)

Being naturally overcautious, I never shave from one side to the other like that -- I always shift back and forth and try to keep it more or less symmetrical, in case the electric razor runs out of juice or dies during the process or I get interrupted. Just part of the neurotic way my mind works.

 

[KRAD]

I grew a beard precisely to avoid these kinds of problems........

 

[elaithin]

^ agreed

 

[Dayton Ward]

How do you get "interrupted" while shaving? Are you an on-call OB/GYN or a paramedic living in the fire house, or a superhero by chance?

Besides, anything that calls for me to stop shaving IMMEDIATELY is probably a situation where I really don't give a damn what I look like.

 

[KRAD]

Besides, anything that calls for me to stop shaving IMMEDIATELY is probably a situation where I really don't give a damn what I look like.

Well, it's not like you give a damn the rest of the time, either........

 

[TerriO]

Christopher's neuroses are probably best left to his psychiatrist.

Besides, for some women, scruffy is a good thing on a man.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I thought the book was cool, but there seem to be so many different versions of the same people it's hard for me to keep them all straight. Am I right in thinking that there are:

- two versions of Iliana Ghemor (one from the RU, and a Mirror version)? Also, I assume that the Cardassian Woman we see in most of the book is the RU Iliana?

- THREE Kiras? Meaning: the normal Kira from the RU, the familiar Intendant from the MU that we've met before, and an alternate Intendant from a different MU?

- Speaking of the 'alternate' Intendant: I assume this is the one we see throughout most of the book. Because she has the Negh'Var, and she talks of a Regent Martok. This can't be the familiar MU, since in that universe, the rebels have the Negh'Var and the regent is/was Worf, neither of which appears to have happened in this version of the MU.

- 'Crisis on Infinite Kiras'....I like that.

 

[David Mack]

^ Wrong on almost all counts, but I can't elaborate much (for fear of incurring the wrath of The Marco).

On your first query: Yes and No.

Your second query: No. Nice try. Thanks for playing.

Your third query: Worf's ship was never named onscreen in any of the DS9 MU episodes. And if Regent Worf was captured by the rebels, then it would stand to reason that someone else would succeed him in that office. I chose Martok.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

David Mack said:Your second query: No. Nice try. Thanks for playing.

Hmmm. So I guess we'll have to wait till Fearful Symmetry to find out exactly who got killed, and by whom, in that last scene?

And about the Negh'Var: Oops. My bad. I thought Regent Worf's ship also had that name. I guess I was confused by the fact that the same model was used...

Oh well. Excellent book, my wildly inaccurate interpretation thereof notwithstanding. :thumbsup:

 

[Christopher]

KRAD said:
I grew a beard precisely to avoid these kinds of problems........

If I grew a beard, I'd look way too much like my father. (Plus it would have a lot of gray in it...)

Dayton Ward said:
How do you get "interrupted" while shaving? Are you an on-call OB/GYN or a paramedic living in the fire house, or a superhero by chance?

No, no, I'm not a superhero, why do you ask? No, that's not a cape under my shirt, honest!

Babaganoosh said:
- two versions of Iliana Ghemor (one from the RU, and a Mirror version)? Also, I assume that the Cardassian Woman we see in most of the book is the RU Iliana?

- THREE Kiras? Meaning: the normal Kira from the RU, the familiar Intendant from the MU that we've met before, and an alternate Intendant from a different MU?

Nope. Think back to "Second Skin." Remember what the Obsidian Order did to Iliana Ghemor's appearance. And think about how that might tie into the existence of a third "Kira."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Okay. I think I got it. So one of these 'alternate Intendants' is actually the MU Iliana? (since apparently the RU Iliana is the 'Cardassian Woman') Which one?

*pause*

I have to go scramble some eggs now. I'll just use my head, since that's how fast it's spinning.

 

[tenmei]

Wouldn't the Mirror Ilyana be Cardassian - with the RU one being Bajoran ?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, I assume that it's true in either universe - Iliana is a Cardassian surgically altered to look Bajoran.

 

[David Mack]

Babaganoosh said:
Well, I assume that it's true in either universe - Iliana is a Cardassian surgically altered to look Bajoran.

Or is she?

< Cue evil laughter >