Want a Picture of Discovery's Enterprise

[Crazy Eddie]

Counterpoint. There are people that buy tech books even if they aren’t interested in the literature or even the property it’s based on. I have my fathers TNG tech manual, and the only other Trek book he owned was the old ‘Making Of’ from the sixties...

Case in point: YOU didn't buy the tech manual either.

If the 15 people in my family who have extensive collections of books on their shelves I can think of only two who actually possess a copy of the TNG tech manual: my mom (who got it at a Star Trek convention way back in the day) and my dad, who got it as a birthday present from me after my mom kept all the Star Trek stuff in the divorce. I also gave him my copy of Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

So that's three sales out of a family of fifteen EXTREMELY avid consumers of books. And that's not even to say the rest of my family doesn't have literally DOZENS of Star Trek books on their shelves too, they just don't give a shit about the technical aspects because they aren't engineers and aren't pretending to be. My cousin actually dropped $30 on a book of Star Trek sheet music and plays the song from "The Inner Light" on her piano, and my youngest uncle bought two copies of the Star Trek Chronology and gave me one.

They sell, and not only to Trek fans. Model makers, design students, general genre fans, gamers of various stripes, engineering students...all sorts.

ART books do, yes. Technical manuals, not so much.

 

[jaime]

Case in point: YOU didn't buy the tech manual either.

If the 15 people in my family who have extensive collections of books on their shelves I can think of only two who actually possess a copy of the TNG tech manual: my mom (who got it at a Star Trek convention way back in the day) and my dad, who got it as a birthday present from me after my mom kept all the Star Trek stuff in the divorce. I also gave him my copy of Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

So that's three sales out of a family of fifteen EXTREMELY avid consumers of books. And that's not even to say the rest of my family doesn't have literally DOZENS of Star Trek books on their shelves too, they just don't give a shit about the technical aspects because they aren't engineers and aren't pretending to be. My cousin actually dropped $30 on a book of Star Trek sheet music and plays the song from "The Inner Light" on her piano, and my youngest uncle bought two copies of the Star Trek Chronology and gave me one.


ART books do, yes. Technical manuals, not so much.

The line between those ART books and the technical manuals is very very very fine. Like, almost nonexistent. The TNG one is a bit of an outlier in terms of the sheer amount of text, then there was the Star Trek Fact Filé which pretty much exhausted people. There was a shit load of tech manual products that covered everything up to Voyager (I think it finished before ENT got going.)

In terms of the history of my copy..nope I didn’t buy it. Since I was in single didgit years, maybe just about doible when it came out, it didn’t really land in my income range. I got the DS9 one for Xmas years later too, but they still sold a copy. It’s highly likely my dad bought the TNG one because he was making me the kit at the time (well..I did some of it...I was a small fella.) My point is, it’s not just the hardest of hardcore, who polish their batleths at weekends, that buy these things.
I won’t even mention the godawful Haynes manuals that came out a few years ago.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The line between those ART books and the technical manuals is very very very fine. Like, almost nonexistent.

Surely art books are pre-existing pictures with captions and the odd interview, versus newly created art and reams of invented technobabble for the in-universe technical books? So the latter is theoretically a lot more work.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The line between those ART books and the technical manuals is very very very fine. Like, almost nonexistent.

As someone with a background in technical writing who has actually had to create ACTUAL tech manuals for things that were not, in fact, fictional, I can tell you this is far from the case. A fictional tech manual is easier, to be sure, by virtue of you being able to just make shit up out of thin air for what you don't know, so there's an element of creativity involved (like being a science fiction writer), but because it is a tech manual and not just a complex essay, you're sort of wasting everyone's time if you don't also include a shit ton of diagrams, graphics cutaways and pictures.

Contrast with an art book which is really just a compilation of concept art, photos of props, photos of the set, interviews from the artists themselves and some commentary from an interested writer. This is WAY easier to do; less time and money intensive and takes a lot less work, especially in the case that using an "art of" book eliminates the need to hire a graphic artist or come up with any fictional diagrams or explanations for anything.

My point is, it’s not just the hardest of hardcore, who polish their batleths at weekends

If THAT is your point, I would have to see some pretty extraordinary evidence that people outside of "hardest of hardcore" even OWN a batleth, let alone polish one at weekends. For that matter:

I won’t even mention the godawful Haynes manuals that came out a few years ago.

I actually AM a hardcore fan. My mother's house converted one entire room into a family library with one corner of the library devoted ENTIRELY to Star Trek....

And none of us paid any money for the Haynes manuals.

 

[Campe]

While at the age of 11, I did own the TNG tech manual, I long have since sold it. At 38, I’m an owner of many film art books. And I personally see a huge difference between the two. I’m more interested in seeing the design history in OUR world NOT a fictional world.

But that’s just me. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

 

[Christopher]

Surely art books are pre-existing pictures with captions and the odd interview, versus newly created art and reams of invented technobabble for the in-universe technical books? So the latter is theoretically a lot more work.

In one respect, maybe. But it's not just about work, it's about expense. You'd still have to get clearances for all those pictures and maybe pay for their use. Plus there's the work of compiling them in the first place, choosing which ones you want to use, designing the best composition for each page, editing the text to fit, and probably other stuff that you and I can't even imagine because we don't create art books for a living.

 

[jaime]

As someone with a background in technical writing who has actually had to create ACTUAL tech manuals for things that were not, in fact, fictional, I can tell you this is far from the case. A fictional tech manual is easier, to be sure, by virtue of you being able to just make shit up out of thin air for what you don't know, so there's an element of creativity involved (like being a science fiction writer), but because it is a tech manual and not just a complex essay, you're sort of wasting everyone's time if you don't also include a shit ton of diagrams, graphics cutaways and pictures.

Contrast with an art book which is really just a compilation of concept art, photos of props, photos of the set, interviews from the artists themselves and some commentary from an interested writer. This is WAY easier to do; less time and money intensive and takes a lot less work, especially in the case that using an "art of" book eliminates the need to hire a graphic artist or come up with any fictional diagrams or explanations for anything.


If THAT is your point, I would have to see some pretty extraordinary evidence that people outside of "hardest of hardcore" even OWN a batleth, let alone polish one at weekends. For that matter:


I actually AM a hardcore fan. My mother's house converted one entire room into a family library with one corner of the library devoted ENTIRELY to Star Trek....

And none of us paid any money for the Haynes manuals.

Lol.
Haynes manuals sucked, so that’s a borderline fact now.
I was using the ownership of a batleth as a humourous signifier for the hardcore fan...I either missed a bit of the sentence while typing, or you misread me.
And as to the first, I think it depends on the art book (judge dredd is screenplay plus concept art, the odd caption, the mass effect one goes into a fair chunk of detail in universe if I recall.) or the TM (The TNG one is a gold standard, the Ds9 contains less writing, more easily done illustrations, the TJ is a magazine made out of set plans and whatnot.) or who is writing it...I don’t doubt some of the TNG TM was written before and during production, just for fun, by sternbach. It strikes me as his way of designing things, similar to some other designers like Syd Mead. Sometimes, if you’ vê done the work anyway, it’s just a question of polish and typesetting. Masamune Shirow and his Appleseed Databooks are similar...he’s just writing down the World building and throwing in so,e sketches.
I think there is small difference between a top standard art book and a mid to top end TM style product.
But a Haynes manual is just a cash in xD

 

[jaime]

In one respect, maybe. But it's not just about work, it's about expense. You'd still have to get clearances for all those pictures and maybe pay for their use. Plus there's the work of compiling them in the first place, choosing which ones you want to use, designing the best composition for each page, editing the text to fit, and probably other stuff that you and I can't even imagine because we don't create art books for a living.

Clearance would be covered by the original contracts if it’s work for hire, or just as easy if it’s the artist authoring the book. Page setting and text edit stuff is about a day or two, if that, for a half-competent InDesign user (again, the artist themself probably has the software and so,e of the training to hand.) Either that or the lower end ones are done by basically journalists as part of the promo. I have a few free ones that are basically the screenplay plus production art. They used to be commonly given away with video releases...I got Alien Res and Titanic that way, and I think I didn’t even have to pay for the judge dredd one by purchasing anything. I still haven’t seen the film at any rate. It was the most basic. The Mass Effect one is quite nice, hardback, and was in a bundle with the game guide. It straddles the TM/Art book divide. Of course, really they are ‘making of’ but with less interview material.

 

[Michael]

Page setting and text edit stuff is about a day or two, if that, for a half-competent InDesign user

As a graphic designer working in the business going on ten years now I can assure you that good layout design (for something like an art book or any book, really) takes a lot longer than “a day or two”.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

As a graphic designer working in the business going on ten years now I can assure you that good layout design (for something like an art book or any book, really) takes a lot longer than “a day or two”.

Gods yes, longer if the client make a "little change" like, fit in these six sponsor logos on page 6.

 

[jaime]

As a graphic designer working in the business going on ten years now I can assure you that good layout design (for something like an art book or any book, really) takes a lot longer than “a day or two”.

I am basing it on my experience also. Assuming the client isn’t regularly asking for changes once stuff is shown, about two days should be plenty. *shrug* But I don’t get paid to do it these days, so maybe things are different. You’re the professional, though how long is right for layout on one book? The text is done, just got to drop it in, you have the images, is it really gonna take more than a week?

 

[Michael]

I am basing it on my experience also. Assuming the client isn’t regularly asking for changes once stuff is shown, about two days should be plenty. *shrug* But I don’t get paid to do it these days, so maybe things are different. You’re the professional, though how long is right for layout on one book? The text is done, just got to drop it in, you have the images, is it really gonna take more than a week?

Hard to say, because there are so many things factoring into making a book. A week sounds more reasonable, but I still don't think that's a realistic timeframe. It's really not merely “dropping in” images and text. Every graphic designer worth his salt will make sure the composition is right in terms of conceptual aspects, proportion, legibility and dramaturgy. They also make sure images are cropped sensibly and the finer details of the text are set correctly. I really think you underestimate how much work goes into layouting a book.

 

[Jedman67]

Hard to say, because there are so many things factoring into making a book. A week sounds more reasonable, but I still don't think that's a realistic timeframe. It's really not merely “dropping in” images and text. Every graphic designer worth his salt will make sure the composition is right in terms of conceptual aspects, proportion, legibility and dramaturgy. They also make sure images are cropped sensibly and the finer details of the text are set correctly. I really think you underestimate how much work goes into layouting a book.

For a project were all the content is preexisting, you'd be looking at several months. Minimum. Longer if there is a marketing budget, if its designed to tie into a specific release, etc.

 

[jaime]

Hard to say, because there are so many things factoring into making a book. A week sounds more reasonable, but I still don't think that's a realistic timeframe. It's really not merely “dropping in” images and text. Every graphic designer worth his salt will make sure the composition is right in terms of conceptual aspects, proportion, legibility and dramaturgy. They also make sure images are cropped sensibly and the finer details of the text are set correctly. I really think you underestimate how much work goes into layouting a book.

I have experience, so am not really underestimating it so much as thinking, were I in a business it’s the wrong one. InDesign in particular has made the workflow light years ahead of paste boards and cleaning ink out of your rotring, so I do boggle a little at the idea of it taking months for the layouts I see in the books on my shelf.

 

[Michael]

Look, I'm not saying layouting a book in under a week is completely impossible, I'm just saying that the result would be a disastrous mess riddled with mistakes and weird, ill-conceived layout choices. It surely wouldn't be a quality product and buyers would be in their right mind to question the product they are asked to buy.

 

[jaime]

Look, I'm not saying layouting a book in under a week is completely impossible, I'm just saying that the result would be a disastrous mess riddled with mistakes and weird, ill-conceived layout choices. It surely wouldn't be a quality product and buyers would be in their right mind to question the product they are asked to buy.

Some of the mags I read must be knocked out in five minutes after lunch on a Friday then xD (white text on a yellow background! Yay! Photo with something interesting in...let’s stick that down there and put it just under this graphic element! Whoosh! Lets blow this less interesting one right up even though I can only find the low res version so you can make up compression artefacts! Mid-blue text on a black background for the title! Yum!) I mean I might be overly fond of radiused corners and drop shadows, and who doesn’t like a one-point outline and a hint of inner glow now and then? And non-standard text formatting like a nineties issue of Newtype is so easy now, it can be hard to restrain myself, but...if I was taking a week, I would have to be handcrafting fonts and approaching kerning like Michaelangelo with a ceiling to paint. Admittedly, most stuff is designed by comittee these days. *shrug* someone deciding they want everything full of yellow at the last minute or something.
Feels like one of those Dark Arts like IT support to me. Never reveal your tricks. Or master pages.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I am basing it on my experience also. Assuming the client isn’t regularly asking for changes once stuff is shown, about two days should be plenty.

It's really not.

Hell, it took me two days just to clean up the layout of an employee handbook that didn't actually HAVE any pictures. And that for a book whose only variations were headings, fonts, and the occasional footnote.

The text is done, just got to drop it in, you have the images, is it really gonna take more than a week?

You remind me of a client I once had who called me up at 11:15pm complaining about an invoice:
HER: I don't understand this amount. You charged us $550 for for three web pages? You said it would only cost $70.
ME: I quoted you an hourly rate of $70 an hour because you're a family friend. Normally I charge twice that. And it took me way more than an hour to finish your website.
HER: Why? It's just three pages!
ME: Well, it's three pages, plus your home page which you didn't have, plus the back-end work I had to do integrating your catalog page with your point-of-sale system, plus I had to sit there and write product description from scratch because you gave them to me on notecards instead of emailing them to me like I asked. All of that work took me a total of seven hours, plus the cost of having to buy your domain name so you could have the web address you wanted.
HER: I don't understand why that took you seven hours. I could have written those pages in Microsoft word in like twenty minutes!
ME: Uh huh...
HER: I do this kind of work for a living! I'm serious! I have a business degree! There's no way this should have taken that long! Thirty minutes tops, I could easily do it myself!
ME: I suppose that means my services are not necessary after all... well, in that case, I'll leave you to it. Good luck with your website.

 

[jaime]

It's really not.

Hell, it took me two days just to clean up the layout of an employee handbook that didn't actually HAVE any pictures. And that for a book whose only variations were headings, fonts, and the occasional footnote.


You remind me of a client I once had who called me up at 11:15pm complaining about an invoice:
HER: I don't understand this amount. You charged us $550 for for three web pages? You said it would only cost $70.
ME: I quoted you an hourly rate of $70 an hour because you're a family friend. Normally I charge twice that. And it took me way more than an hour to finish your website.
HER: Why? It's just three pages!
ME: Well, it's three pages, plus your home page which you didn't have, plus the back-end work I had to do integrating your catalog page with your point-of-sale system, plus I had to sit there and write product description from scratch because you gave them to me on notecards instead of emailing them to me like I asked. All of that work took me a total of seven hours, plus the cost of having to buy your domain name so you could have the web address you wanted.
HER: I don't understand why that took you seven hours. I could have written those pages in Microsoft word in like twenty minutes!
ME: Uh huh...
HER: I do this kind of work for a living! I'm serious! I have a business degree! There's no way this should have taken that long! Thirty minutes tops, I could easily do it myself!
ME: I suppose that means my services are not necessary after all... well, in that case, I'll leave you to it. Good luck with your website.

Well, to each their own I guess. Your example isn’t quite the same. You did more than design three webpages after all.
When I use ‘text is ready, images ready, just drop in’ that’s what I mean. Literally just layout. Not editing the text. Not writing the text (or waiting for person x to get his effing report in, and of course he loves a chart...humph...) or even worrying about correcting the images (because it’s an art book...if the point is to show the images as created, you don’t need or shouldn’t be fiddling with those, or in the case of a TM, those drawings are done.)
Just putting the thing together to make it look nice.
That..with modern software, and with absolute control over decision making, shouldn’t take that long...less if there’s a style preset by the subject or House style. We are t talking custom metal dyes in the inks here. Like I said, Dark Arts, maybe there is something I am missing when I have had to do this stuff in the past, but your basic common or garden art book or TM is not that hard at the layout stage these days. Look at the TNG TM. The writing and drawing probably took months or years, less if adapting from notes made during production, and the layout is very much of its time (Quark Xpress. They used it for the graphics on the show too.) but seriously? It’s not ID magazine or The Face.
*shrug* as I say my experience is limited (but not non-existent) I just think it can be done well and fast.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, to each their own I guess. Your example isn’t quite the same. You did more than design three webpages after all.
When I use ‘text is ready, images ready, just drop in’ that’s what I mean. Literally just layout. Not editing the text. Not writing the text (or waiting for person x to get his effing report in, and of course he loves a chart...humph...) or even worrying about correcting the images (because it’s an art book...if the point is to show the images as created, you don’t need or shouldn’t be fiddling with those, or in the case of a TM, those drawings are done.)
Just putting the thing together to make it look nice.

Yep, that's exactly why I draw that comparison.

Because it's something that SEEMS really simple until you consider the exact details on what "drop it in" actually entails.

If insert an image into a bloc of text (say, 750 words) what happens to the paragraph spaces and line breaks? am I splitting a paragraph at a point where half the last sentence is on the next page, followed by a page break? If I'm using justified text, does this spacing make this whole thing look weird?

And then factor in unexpected quirks of whatever software you're using:
- Where the fuck did my captions go?
- Why isn't this displaying correctly?
- I need to shrink this image to make it fit better... oh shit, that means I need to crop it differently... oh shit, I didn't save the high-res version and cropping it makes it look blurry... oh shit there's the high-res version but it's in the wrong format...
- Wow, that looks clunky... let me add one additional space beneath that paragraph so it OH MY FUCKING GOD HALF MY IMAGES JUST JUMPED INTO TO HYPERSPACE

And the always wonderful:
- Huh... the high volume printer has different margin parameters than the software we're using and now we have to redo the whole thing. Fuck my life!

That..with modern software, and with absolute control over decision making, shouldn’t take that long

One would think.

"The more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

Look at the TNG TM. The writing and drawing probably took months or years, less if adapting from notes made during production, and the layout is very much of its time (Quark Xpress. They used it for the graphics on the show too.) but seriously? It’s not ID magazine or The Face.

And the TNG manual is a REALLY good example of this, because I could almost guarantee you the layout took at least a week to finally get narrowed down, even if all the editing and retouching was completely done, and even if problems with the layout didn't require further edits.

 

[Michael]

I just think it can be done well and fast.

Well, you most certainly think wrong. The fact that you seem to think the artists' images can just be dropped into the layout without any retouching being done shows that you have a basic misunderstanding of what is actually done to produce an art book, or any piece of printed work for that matter. I'm sorry to be that frank, but you really are mistaken there.