Waiting for final episode before getting into 'Picard'?

[The Wormhole]

Why do you assume that was the argument and not the obvious one, which is the lack of a faithful recreation of 2399 based on every scrap of averted/hypothetical future shown on TNG, DS9 and VGR right down to the uniform/communicator designs they kept reusing and of course classic TNG warp and phaser effects?

Well, "visual style" to me means the manner in which it's filmed, but if the complaint is about the fact that it doesn't look like the AGT future, again, there was no reason to expect that. AGT was from twenty-five years ago, and its look is very dated nowadays. The only reason DS9 and Voyager kept that look when they did future episodes was to save money, the costumes and props were sitting in storage, might as well use them. That's no longer the case, those costumes and props were sold at auctions years ago, they had to make something new anyway. Why copy a look which was designed in 1994 with the intent of looking "further in the future" when you can instead create something "modern" for a 2020 audience?

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Why copy a look which was designed in 1994 with the intent of looking "further in the future" when you can instead create something "modern" for a 2020 audience?

Because PIC is probably watched by the 1994 audience first and foremost, and also there is nothing dated about the exact uniforms or warp effects or replicator effects (whereas it is always possible to invisibly slide into other updates such as avoiding a table covered with PADDs and people handing them out like notepads).

 

[The Wormhole]

Because PIC is probably watched by the 1994 audience first and foremost, and also there is nothing dated about the exact uniforms or warp effects or replicator effects

The AGT uniforms are totally dated. They are quite literally someone taking the TNG uniforms and trying to "futurify" them. It worked in 1994, but that same look wouldn't work so well in 2020. The replicator effect isn't really all that different anyway, certainly not so much as to be a legitimate reason not to watch the show. The warp effect maybe that could have stayed the same, certainly The Orville uses an identical effect, but again, I can't see refusing to watch a new Star Trek just because they changed the warp effect.

 

[Lord Garth]

Because PIC is probably watched by the 1994 audience first and foremost, and also there is nothing dated about the exact uniforms or warp effects or replicator effects (whereas it is always possible to invisibly slide into other updates such as avoiding a table covered with PADDs and people handing them out like notepads).

Just because I was around in 1994 -- and in high school -- doesn't mean I still want things to look like they did in 1994.

That was my time. I'm willing to move passed it and not be frozen by it. If other people can't, that's on them. They shouldn't take it out on Picard.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Sure, I’d never go as far as refusing to watch a show for those reasons, but there is definitely a difference between revealing a new environment (“this is TNG era post-JJ”) and following the original one to the letter, which is when something new and unexpected happens on story level, just as Better Call Saul manages to surprise us despite its 2002+ setting designed to slide into Breaking Bad. If you can’t rely on eye candy, then everything else has to be exceptional. You can’t use sci-fi elements to distract the viewer from character, story, shot composition: every detail has to matter.

 

[JesterFace]

After reading all the posts that quoted me, I still think I'm right.
Maybe internet is not a good place for me.

 

[Lord Garth]

After reading all the posts that quoted me, I still think I'm right.
Maybe internet is not a good place for me.

Of course you do. You didn't want to post anything because you knew this was how everyone would respond. So that's why you hid behind, "I don't want to post anything because of spoilers!" That was bullshit and you knew it. That's why I called you on it.

 

[JesterFace]

Of course you do. You didn't want to post anything because you knew this was how everyone would respond. So that's why you hid behind, "I don't want to post because of spoilers!" That was bullshit and you knew it. That's why I called you on it.

Post anything? I wrote a long post earlier about what you asked.

 

[Lord Garth]

Post anything? I wrote a long post earlier about what you asked.

Only because I prompted you to. You wouldn't have otherwise.

 

[JesterFace]

Only because I prompted you to. You wouldn't have otherwise.

Well, I did post it when asked, that was wrong?

 

[JesterFace]

This is so early new millenium, internet fight....

 

[Lord Garth]

Well, I did post it when asked, that was wrong?

You initially didn't want to and used your interpretation of board policy as a shield. "Well, I'd say what I think, but I can't because of board policy." You were using it as a fig leaf. ("No I wasn't!" Yes, you were.) Then I clarified what the policy was, so you couldn't do that anymore. Then you answered and then you saw that the chips fell where you thought they would. So you pointed to all the quotes from all the various posters and said, "I was right."

I'm all set. This will go back-and-forth indefinitely otherwise.

 

[JesterFace]

You initially didn't want to and used your interpretation of board policy as a shield. "Well, I'd say what I think, but I can't because of board policy." Then I clarified what the policy was, so you couldn't do that anymore. Then you answered and then you saw that the chips fell where you thought they would. So you pointed to all the quotes from all the various posters and said, "I was right."

This nagging is getting us nowhere... but since you insist.
Basically you want me to reply to every post separately, is that what this is all about?

 

[JesterFace]

Lord Garth demands so here goes....

^ I'm not sure how waiting until the currently hypothetical final episode of the series has any bearing on your concerns. Won't they still be the same concerns then?

I'm not sure either, the outcome of the series might have some effect on that.

I may be misunderstanding your meaning here, but if you watch and dislike PIC how is that ruining past episodes of TNG that you loved? There are movies I adore that have lackluster sequels, but it doesn't change my feeling about the original film...

For example, watching some character on screen and then later seeing an episode where that character possibly dies decades later somehow takes the fun out of the character / scene. Can it be the same?

I don't see how that has any effect on the past. Kirk died in Generations, how many TOS episodes and previous movies did that 'poop on'?

Generations (weak movie) killing Kirk poops on every TOS episode and movie. Was it really necessary to kill him?

Picard and all the others were copied every time they transported. Picard himself was once inside the ship's systems, and in a nebula (Lonely among us). That was way more insane than giving him a new body. Which is the same that happened to Spock, how did SFF 'poop on' TOS episodes and TMP/WOK?

Transporting is a way to travel. Killing a character is killing a character no matter how it's twisted.

Nimoy did WOK because he enjoyed the thought of getting Spock killed. Did Nimoy 'poop' as well?

Lets not speak bad things about the passed. And its also not the topic here.

Every ship looks different, even on TNG. Do you think the Sirena should have a Galaxy style interior? Did DS9, FC, VOY, ENT, STXI, Beyond 'poop on' TNG cause they have new uniforms, props, etc.?

Its not about the ships or the uniforms, the general feeling on TV is different and that's understandable, it's been 20 years.

Did FC ruin BOBW? Did Generations ruin TNG? Did Relics ruin TOS? Did If Memory Serves ruin The Cage?

Did FC ruin BOBW? Yes. Picard telling to the Queen, "you were there always...." Right, why not use her as the way to communicate with the Federation? Nah, we'll get the flagship captain, much more menacing. Opinion coming, beware: 'Generations' movie is shit. It came around after perfect ending to TNG, 'All Good Things...' That's why I avoid 'Generations' and TNG ends with AGT.

That's a bit of an overreaction. Data's already been dead for twenty years, you can't blame that on this show. And Picard's death is undone a few minutes after it happens.

Still, wasn't Brent going on about how they must kill Data because he can't look young forever and Data doesn't age and all that? How about a program on Data that makes him look older as time does by?

We're not getting a Star Trek show shot in 4:3 with a static camera ever again. Seems an odd reason not to watch a show.

It's not about the picture size.

I'll echo above thoughts that I really don't get how the presence of Maddox and Hugh could ruin The Measure of a Man or I Borg. Even if you don't like how they're handled in this show, how does that ruin or even change your opinions of episodes which aired thirty years ago? Does the fact that John Ales played Bruce Maddox in 2020 instead of Brian Brophy really prevent you from enjoying Measure of a Man next time you watch it?

This was covered earlier in this post.

 

[cosmic mouse]

For example, watching some character on screen and then later seeing an episode where that character possibly dies decades later somehow takes the fun out of the character / scene. Can it be the same?

I see where you are coming from; I just disagree with you. I think it's safe to say that my brain works entirely different than yours does with regard to this (which is fine).

 

[The Wormhole]

For example, watching some character on screen and then later seeing an episode where that character possibly dies decades later somehow takes the fun out of the character / scene. Can it be the same?

Generations (weak movie) killing Kirk poops on every TOS episode and movie. Was it really necessary to kill him?

So, the death of a character poops on that which came before featuring them? Did Tasha's death in Skin of Evil poop on the preceding first season?

Did FC ruin BOBW? Yes. Picard telling to the Queen, "you were there always...." Right, why not use her as the way to communicate with the Federation? Nah, we'll get the flagship captain, much more menacing.

Well, yeah, it kind of is. Having a well known and respected public figure turned against the Federation does much to cripple their morale. Much more then "Oh, hi, I'm the Queen. You never heard of me before? No, I guess you wouldn't."

It's not about the picture size.

Then what is it about?

 

[Kor]

Well, "visual style" to me means the manner in which it's filmed, but if the complaint is about the fact that it doesn't look like the AGT future, again, there was no reason to expect that. AGT was from twenty-five years ago, and its look is very dated nowadays. The only reason DS9 and Voyager kept that look when they did future episodes was to save money, the costumes and props were sitting in storage, might as well use them. That's no longer the case, those costumes and props were sold at auctions years ago, they had to make something new anyway. Why copy a look which was designed in 1994 with the intent of looking "further in the future" when you can instead create something "modern" for a 2020 audience?

The AGT future was all a big Q illusion, anyway.

Kor

 

[JesterFace]

So, the death of a character poops on that which came before featuring them? Did Tasha's death in Skin of Evil poop on the preceding first season?

You're twisting my worlds to get results that you want. Tasha died during TNG, that's different than killing a character later in another series.

Well, yeah, it kind of is. Having a well known and respected public figure turned against the Federation does much to cripple their morale. Much more then "Oh, hi, I'm the Queen. You never heard of me before? No, I guess you wouldn't."

About the Queen. I thought Locutus was created to make it easier for the Borg to "introduce" themselves to Earth and Federation. Borg quote from BOBW part 1: "To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a Human voice will speak for us in all communications. You have been chosen to be that voice."
For me it looked like the Borg wouldn't expect so much resistance if someone familiar to the Federation talked to them.

Then what is it about?

Everything has to be so dark on TV these days.
I don't even remember where this discussion originated, can't say much more on that.

 

[Makarov]

The AGT future was all a big Q illusion, anyway.

Kor

I dont think that was ever intended, I mean all the characters treat it more like time travel and it wasnt an elaborate fantasy like the robinhood thing. The differences come down to the timelines diverging imo

 

[JesterFace]

I dont think that was ever intended, I mean all the characters treat it more like time travel and it wasnt an elaborate fantasy like the robinhood thing. The differences come down to the timelines diverging imo

Picard and maybe others too treated the future timeline as the timeline they believed would eventually happen, at least until Q showed up, maybe after that too.

 

[Lord Garth]

Then the Enterprise-D was destroyed in Generations and Troi was still alive five years after "All Good Things" in Insurrection... and the script for Generations was written in the summer of 1993, which was before "All Good Things".

Some people forget where the 24th Century was when things left off and only look at TNG. But it continued on in the TNG Movies and on DS9 and VOY. And the tiny, tiny little glimpse we got from the 2009 film. Picard just picked up the last things we knew about the 24th Century and went from there.

Hell, the whole point of the last scene in "All Good Things" at the poker table was that we find out Picard told the crew what happened so they could prevent it from happening at all. Except for Picard's brain defect, that's what ended up happening.

Riker & Troi --> Got back together in Insurrection and married in Nemesis.
Data --> Died in Nemesis.
Picard --> He was in much better health in 2399 than he was in the AGT version of 2395. Probably because since he knew so far in advance, he could take precautions to slow or lessen the effects of the defect even if he couldn't get rid of it.

Geordi --> We'll see.
Worf --> We'll see.
Crusher --> She wasn't even mentioned in the first season of PIC. She's the wild card.

But I think even as "All Good Things" was being written it wasn't intended as the future future, since Generations was already written. Just a possible future. And Picard cherry-picked what they thought would work best for them in the "real" 2390s.

On October 21st, 2015, I had a bunch of friends over to watch Back to the Future, Part II because that's the day Doc & Marty arrived to 2015 in the film. We got a big kick out of comparing the movie's 2015 to the real 2015. We didn't go around complaining "This 2015 isn't like that 2015!" (not seriously anyway) And this was the same type of thing. I got a kick out of seeing how the Picard version of 2399 -- the Official Canon 2390s -- was different from the hypothetical one in "All Good Things". That's the spirit I took it in. Not "Oh! I'm going to find everything wrong with it because I don't want to like it! I don't wanna! Poo! Poo!"

 

[The Wormhole]

You're twisting my worlds to get results that you want. Tasha died during TNG, that's different than killing a character later in another series.

But Data died in a TNG movie and you think that poops on TNG.

For me it looked like the Borg wouldn't expect so much resistance if someone familiar to the Federation talked to them.

Exactly. So what's the problem with the Queen?

Everything has to be so dark on TV these days.

Assuming you mean the lighting and you're not talking tonally, yeah, I get how that can be annoying. But Picard still has some brightly lit locations, like the vineyard or the Synth world. Even the sets that are dark, like the La Sirena or the Borg cube aren't so dark that it's impossible to see things.

Regardless, as annoying as dark sets can be it's still a pretty weird reason to refuse to watch a show.

 

[NCC-73515]

Generations (weak movie) killing Kirk poops on every TOS episode and movie. Was it really necessary to kill him?

So the only way for you to enjoy any movie or TV show is that no character ever dies. Good luck with that XD

Transporting is a way to travel. Killing a character is killing a character no matter how it's twisted.

Picard traveled to the Data simulation, then traveled to his new body. What's the difference to traveling into a nebula and the ship's circuits? Do you regret watching WOK, since it pooped on all of TOS?

Lets not speak bad things about the passed. And its also not the topic here.

Your topic is: characters getting killed poops on all previous episodes. That's what I read at least...

Did FC ruin BOBW? Yes. Picard telling to the Queen, "you were there always...." Right, why not use her as the way to communicate with the Federation? Nah, we'll get the flagship captain, much more menacing. Opinion coming, beware: 'Generations' movie is shit. It came around after perfect ending to TNG, 'All Good Things...' That's why I avoid 'Generations' and TNG ends with AGT.

Only a human can bridge the gap. She wasn't human.
Did Relics ruin TOS? Did If Memory Serves ruin The Cage?

Still, wasn't Brent going on about how they must kill Data because he can't look young forever and Data doesn't age and all that? How about a program on Data that makes him look older as time does by?

He actually can age in appearance (TNG Inheritance).

Did BTTF2 and 3 ruin 1? Did Aliens ruin Alien? Did T2 ruin T1? Did Alien 3 and Prometheus ruin Alien or Aliens? Did T3-6 ruin T1-2?

 

[fireproof78]

The AGT future was all a big Q illusion, anyway.

Kor

Yup.

Regardless, as annoying as dark sets can be it's still a pretty weird reason to refuse to watch a show.

Well, I hear people complaining about resolution and image quality to not watch older things.

the only way for you to enjoy any movie or TV show is that no character ever dies. Good luck with that XD

Indeed.

 

[NCC-73515]

On October 21st, 2015, I had a bunch of friends over to watch Back to the Future, Part II because that's the day Doc & Marty arrived to 2015 in the film. We got a big kick out of comparing the movie's 2015 to the real 2015. We didn't go around complaining "This 2015 isn't like that 2015!" (not seriously anyway) And this was the same type of thing. I got a kick out of seeing how the Picard version of 2399 -- the Official Canon 2390s -- was different from the hypothetical one in "All Good Things". That's the spirit I took it in. Not "Oh! I'm going to find everything wrong with it because I don't want to like it! I don't wanna! Poo! Poo!"

I got so excited as 4:29 got closer... I actually managed to be up in the air when they arrived (Sears/Willis Tower), got the USA Today several times the next day, went to the Twin Pines Mall 3 days later, then got close enough to Mill Valley, CA to see it written on buses 2 days after that XD

 

[The Wormhole]

Did Alien 3 and Prometheus ruin Alien or Aliens? Did T3-6 ruin T1-2?

Ah, well, about that...

 

[fireproof78]

Did BTTF2 and 3 ruin 1? Did Aliens ruin Alien? Did T2 ruin T1? Did Alien 3 and Prometheus ruin Alien or Aliens? Did T3-6 ruin T1-2?

Nope.

 

[Makarov]

Matrix 2 and Matrix 3 absolutely ruined The Matrix