WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Lost?!
- Thread starter The Rock
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Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
I'd like to think that they obeyed the Founder leader's order to surrender and subsequently left Earth, but unfortunately we never found this out for sure (not even in the novels, AFAIK).
I agree, though, it is a rather large plot hole. They could still be out there, and thus, still dangerous.
I'd like to think that they obeyed the Founder leader's order to surrender and subsequently left Earth, but unfortunately we never found this out for sure (not even in the novels, AFAIK).
I agree, though, it is a rather large plot hole. They could still be out there, and thus, still dangerous.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
I actually intend to address this head-on in a fanfic. Stay tuned....
I actually intend to address this head-on in a fanfic. Stay tuned....
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
We can only assume that the treaty ending the Dominion War was very unambiguous about the need for all undercover changeling infiltrators to be recalled. Although how they could possibly be sure the Dominion had been faithful in doing so, I don't know. I guess really they just had to hope, or push to have a "changelings discovered after the signing means serious consequences" clause in the treaty. Although I still don't know what exactly the Federation could possibly have over the Dominion to enforce that - it's hardly their policy to go on the invasive, after all.
In all, I guess the four Changelings on Earth and however many there were scattered across the wider Federation did what they could to sabotage the UFP's efforts or gather intelligence, but none of that fell under Deep Space Nine's perview and so we didn't hear of the ongoing efforts to defend against them.
We can only assume that the treaty ending the Dominion War was very unambiguous about the need for all undercover changeling infiltrators to be recalled. Although how they could possibly be sure the Dominion had been faithful in doing so, I don't know. I guess really they just had to hope, or push to have a "changelings discovered after the signing means serious consequences" clause in the treaty. Although I still don't know what exactly the Federation could possibly have over the Dominion to enforce that - it's hardly their policy to go on the invasive, after all.
In all, I guess the four Changelings on Earth and however many there were scattered across the wider Federation did what they could to sabotage the UFP's efforts or gather intelligence, but none of that fell under Deep Space Nine's perview and so we didn't hear of the ongoing efforts to defend against them.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
I wish DS9 showed more Changelings from that point on. If you went just by what we saw you'd think that during the entire war there were only two Changelings in the Alpha Quadrant, Odo and the Female Founder. We got a hint there were more around in "Change of Heart" as the info the Cardassian spy had was the location and cover of all the Changelings in the Alpha Quadrant.
As for their ultimate fates the Changeling disease could have devastated their ranks since Bashir said something about the disease accelerating in Odo when he changed forms and given their work they might do a lot of shifting forms. They could have reached the fatal point prior to Odo and the FF and some might have died before the war ended. Odo might have infected one of the Earth Founder if he had already gone to Starfleet Medical prior to having that run in with the Changeling posing as Leyton.
I wish DS9 showed more Changelings from that point on. If you went just by what we saw you'd think that during the entire war there were only two Changelings in the Alpha Quadrant, Odo and the Female Founder. We got a hint there were more around in "Change of Heart" as the info the Cardassian spy had was the location and cover of all the Changelings in the Alpha Quadrant.
As for their ultimate fates the Changeling disease could have devastated their ranks since Bashir said something about the disease accelerating in Odo when he changed forms and given their work they might do a lot of shifting forms. They could have reached the fatal point prior to Odo and the FF and some might have died before the war ended. Odo might have infected one of the Earth Founder if he had already gone to Starfleet Medical prior to having that run in with the Changeling posing as Leyton.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
^ To be honest, that raises another point. Many of those changelings probably never got the virus. Section 31's plan to eliminate the Founders might well have left a fair few changelings alive in the Alpha Quadrant - those on long-term infiltration missions, and who therefore haven't linked with anyone. If the Link had died off, those infiltrators would still be around to pursue vengeance - and if there was no longer a need to gather intelligence or be subtle in order to truly undermine and erode a society from within, they might go all-out on an offensive and do some major damage. How did Secion 31 plan for that - or didn't they? Did they just assume there would be a few unavoidable mop-up operations and it couldn't be helped?
^ To be honest, that raises another point. Many of those changelings probably never got the virus. Section 31's plan to eliminate the Founders might well have left a fair few changelings alive in the Alpha Quadrant - those on long-term infiltration missions, and who therefore haven't linked with anyone. If the Link had died off, those infiltrators would still be around to pursue vengeance - and if there was no longer a need to gather intelligence or be subtle in order to truly undermine and erode a society from within, they might go all-out on an offensive and do some major damage. How did Secion 31 plan for that - or didn't they? Did they just assume there would be a few unavoidable mop-up operations and it couldn't be helped?
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
The writers were pretty inconsistent about just how many changelings remained in the Alpha Quadrant. The FF told Odo in "Behind Enemy Line" early in the 6th season that she was the only Founder left in the Alpha Quadrant after the wormhole was mined in the 5th season finale. Unless she was lying to Odo there were no other Founders left in the Alpha Quadrant for the cardassian starfleet operative to know about in "change of heart"
The writers were pretty inconsistent about just how many changelings remained in the Alpha Quadrant. The FF told Odo in "Behind Enemy Line" early in the 6th season that she was the only Founder left in the Alpha Quadrant after the wormhole was mined in the 5th season finale. Unless she was lying to Odo there were no other Founders left in the Alpha Quadrant for the cardassian starfleet operative to know about in "change of heart"
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
I think the Founders are generally very patient. After some initial sneaking around trying to muck up the Alpha Quadrant in seasons 3-5 of DS9, they had all-but withdrawn to the Gamma Quadrant, leaving only one Founder to "look after" the Vorta and Jem'Hadar they had there to win the war. And even the one Founder left there could hardly be bothered in keeping tabs on the war, vice just letting Weyoun run things.
Certainly, once the war ended and the treaty was in place, it would have prohibited further changeling infultration.
I think the Founders are generally very patient. After some initial sneaking around trying to muck up the Alpha Quadrant in seasons 3-5 of DS9, they had all-but withdrawn to the Gamma Quadrant, leaving only one Founder to "look after" the Vorta and Jem'Hadar they had there to win the war. And even the one Founder left there could hardly be bothered in keeping tabs on the war, vice just letting Weyoun run things.
Certainly, once the war ended and the treaty was in place, it would have prohibited further changeling infultration.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
I think the Founders are generally very patient. After some initial sneaking around trying to muck up the Alpha Quadrant in seasons 3-5 of DS9, they had all-but withdrawn to the Gamma Quadrant, leaving only one Founder to "look after" the Vorta and Jem'Hadar they had there to win the war. And even the one Founder left there could hardly be bothered in keeping tabs on the war, vice just letting Weyoun run things.
Certainly, once the war ended and the treaty was in place, it would have prohibited further changeling infultration.
I think the Founders are generally very patient. After some initial sneaking around trying to muck up the Alpha Quadrant in seasons 3-5 of DS9, they had all-but withdrawn to the Gamma Quadrant, leaving only one Founder to "look after" the Vorta and Jem'Hadar they had there to win the war. And even the one Founder left there could hardly be bothered in keeping tabs on the war, vice just letting Weyoun run things.
Certainly, once the war ended and the treaty was in place, it would have prohibited further changeling infultration.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
Then again, how many changelings are we SURE were on Earth? The fake O'Brien could have been lying when he said there were four. There's that one, and fake Leyton, but no evidence for any more. (Or perhaps those two were the same Changeling, just masquerading as different people?)
Then again, how many changelings are we SURE were on Earth? The fake O'Brien could have been lying when he said there were four. There's that one, and fake Leyton, but no evidence for any more. (Or perhaps those two were the same Changeling, just masquerading as different people?)
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
Personally, I don't think there ever were any Changelings on Earth. I think it was all part of Leyton's plan.
Personally, I don't think there ever were any Changelings on Earth. I think it was all part of Leyton's plan.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
Except...Odo grabbed a changeling posing as Leyton (who escaped), and noted that he could feel hostility due to his having killed another.
And of course...why would Leyton have fake-O'Brien admit to Sisko that there were "Only Four"?
Except...Odo grabbed a changeling posing as Leyton (who escaped), and noted that he could feel hostility due to his having killed another.
And of course...why would Leyton have fake-O'Brien admit to Sisko that there were "Only Four"?
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
They were probably cought during the war.
They were probably cought during the war.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
^Who knows? After all...considering the known presence of changeling infiltrators on Earth, are we really to believe that Starfleet Intelligence--or, heck, Section 31, for that matter--wasn't giving an extra effort to round them up?
^Who knows? After all...considering the known presence of changeling infiltrators on Earth, are we really to believe that Starfleet Intelligence--or, heck, Section 31, for that matter--wasn't giving an extra effort to round them up?
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
The first point...interesting, but I still think it could have been faked.
The second point...remember, Leyton's plan depended on fear-mongering. One Changeling on Earth could wreak huge amounts of havoc, and Leyton knew that. The idea that only four Changelings were on Earth, but even that small number could do huge amounts of damage, fits exactly with Leyton's conspiracy - using fear of Changelings to fabricate a situation that he could seize control of.
The first point...interesting, but I still think it could have been faked.
The second point...remember, Leyton's plan depended on fear-mongering. One Changeling on Earth could wreak huge amounts of havoc, and Leyton knew that. The idea that only four Changelings were on Earth, but even that small number could do huge amounts of damage, fits exactly with Leyton's conspiracy - using fear of Changelings to fabricate a situation that he could seize control of.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
Still, Fake-O'Brien was gloating to Sisko about how they were using the paranoia to their advantage. Hardly something Leyton would confess to Sisko about.
Still, Fake-O'Brien was gloating to Sisko about how they were using the paranoia to their advantage. Hardly something Leyton would confess to Sisko about.
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
In that case, why would Odo fake that?
Are you trying to imply that Leyton was never a Changeling at all?
In that case, why would Odo fake that?
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
It's exactly the sort of thing Leyton would confess to Sisko about while Leyton was thinking like a Changeling. It's not as if he was confessing that he was using the paranoia to his advantage, he had the fake Changeling behave exactly the way he would expect a Changeling to behave.
I wasn't saying Odo was faking it, I was saying somehow Leyton was faking it. Yeah, I'm grasping at straws, what's your point?
It's exactly the sort of thing Leyton would confess to Sisko about while Leyton was thinking like a Changeling. It's not as if he was confessing that he was using the paranoia to his advantage, he had the fake Changeling behave exactly the way he would expect a Changeling to behave.
I wasn't saying Odo was faking it, I was saying somehow Leyton was faking it. Yeah, I'm grasping at straws, what's your point?
Re: WAIT! What happened to the changelings on earth after Paradise Los
A holographic projection?
Darn. I liked my theory.
A holographic projection?
Darn. I liked my theory.
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