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Wait... was TNG racist?

But Quark's own speech made no sense, because it had been shown that the Ferengi DO do the very things he claim they never did: Slavery, galactic wars, etc. Heck, at that point the Ferengi still had their women running around naked all the time.

If it had been, say, a Bajoran or something to say that then it'd be more believable. As it stands it sounded good at the moment but it really made Quark out to be a hypocrite (like Spock).
I don't remember any mention of slavery on Ferenginar. If you mean that half of their population were second class citizens (women), Bajor had a caste system, so it's exactly like it was an example of equality, either.

Humans in Trek seem to be respectful of other cultures as long as they're the same as their own. A most jarring example of a prejudiced and contemptuous attitude towards another culture was in fact the attitude of Picard and others to the 20th century Humans in "The Neutral Zone", all the more puzzling because they should have shown a bit more understanding for people who were thrown into another time and had experienced a huge cultural shock. What is worse, the show didn't portray it as bad, as they did with Stiles' racism towards Romulans and Vulcans, or the prejudice towards androids that popped up in TNG from time to time, or O'Brien's issues with Cardassians; the 20th century Humans were portrayed as stupid backwards bumpkins who deserved to be despised. A similar, if a little more covert, attitude is shown towards various aliens in seasons 1 and 2 of TNG (see my thread about 'Stupid aliens'): the TNG crew tends to either preach to them ("We were like you once, but we have evolved..." type of speeches), or regard them in a dismissive if slightly amused way, or underestimate them (as with Pakleds in 'The Samaritan Snare'), but those aliens are made to behave in such ridiculous way and their cultures are made to look so absurd, that you can't really criticize the TNG crew for it. But you can criticize the writers for their inability to portray a culture different from a 24th century Federation as anything different than primitive and misguided. (Which would thankfully somewhat change in the later seasons of TNG and on DS9.)

I've also noticed that there were many moments when TNG Humans had a slightly dismissive or mocking attitude to Data, particularly in the early seasons. It wasn't just when the show was intentionally drawing attention to it, as with Pulaski, or the guy in "Redemption". Lots of times you'd see Riker and the others snickering and exchanging grins at something that Data said (which the audience was supposed to participate in, since Data's lack of understanding of human behavior was a source of comedy), or they would be impatient with him and cut him off when he would start reciting the facts. As if they found him endearing, but kind of silly, like an eccentric cousin that you like having around, but laugh at behind his back.

See also the way that the crew treated Barclay - which showed that they're not that different from the 20th century humans as we know them, after all: they will still ridicule anyone who doesn't fit in with the majority.

And I'm not saying that this is a bad thing to portray: it shows that the 24th Humans weren't perfect and that they were still very human, even if they were more PC than the folks of TOS. But it's incongruous to insist that those people are perfect or that 'evolved' in comparison to their ancestors.

I'd also say that comparing them to Trek aliens and going on about how worse the attitudes of those aliens are is, well, not the best way to establish the superiority of Trek Humans. "Yes, they may not be perfect, but those other guys are worse..." That's like those people in real life who constantly defend the actions of their government by pointing out that there are others who are worse. Shouldn't people be trying to meet the standards they set for themselves, rather than justifying themselves by using the worst possible standards for comparison?

And since we're not talking about real life but fiction, these aliens are like that because they were written like that, and they were written like that exactly for the purpose of making the Humans look better by comparison.

Trek occasionally tends to indulge in "Humans are the most special and awesome beings in the galaxy and everyone should wish to become more human" attitudes. One of the most jarring examples is "When the Bough Breaks", when Picard tells the aliens that Humans tend to have strong feelings for their offspring - which implies that Human attachment to their children is something extraordinary among sentient races of Trek. Well, we don't have real life experience with other sapient species, but someone should have shown the writers of that episode some of the nature documentaries, like this one, that show certain animals showing deep attachment to their offspring (like the doe in this video - at 3:10 - devastated by her death of her fawn).* Then there is ENT "Observer Effect", which implies that, out of all the sapient species that the Organians had ever observed, Humans were the only ones to show compassion. Seriously?


*Although that might not have been the intention, one could see Madred's words to his daughter in "Chain of Command pt 2" ("Human mothers and fathers do not love their children as we do") as putting those comments from "When the Bough Breaks" into an ironic perspective.
 
Oh man...I had to quit watching that documentary. Ewwwwwww. :puke:

Otherwise, you pretty much summed up everything I was trying to say about Trek humanity, and the way they're put up on a pedastal like they're the be-all-end-all of the galaxy.

I have a PM to send you on that subject...something I was wondering if I could get your opinion on.
 
Which is just raising a double-standard I've noticed around here: We keep getting complaints about how the TNG Humans are too perfect, yet whenever they act like 20th century humans (who are, I'm assuming, the utterly perfect model of human existence no fiction is allowed to deviate from) all I hear are complaints.

What do you want, exactly? No one is going to go around speechifying about how worthless and horrible they are. And when you go around saving the universe, it's only HUMAN you'll get a little arrogant (in fact it's a deserved arrogance).

Should Picard go save the Galaxy and then go make a log entry stating "I'm a worthless bastard with no redeeming qualities whatsoever"?

The humans from "The Neutral Zone"? The Businessman was a jerk, so he deserved the attitude he got. No one had any problems with the housewife and the musician, in fact they liked them. The only reason Picard had any problem was because he was busy dealing with the Romulan threat, which is TOTALLY understandable.

Really, when it comes down to it and it's a choice between a guy who is occasionally somewhat snobby but still undisguisedly heroic and an unrepentant Nazi, I'll choose the heroic snob.
 
And I'm not saying that this is a bad thing to portray: it shows that the 24th Humans weren't perfect and that they were still very human, even if they were more PC than the folks of TOS. But it's incongruous to insist that those people are perfect or that 'evolved' in comparison to their ancestors.

In a way, you've already answered this, but this next paragraph ties into my answer on your first paragraph....

And since we're not talking about real life but fiction, these aliens are like that because they were written like that, and they were written like that exactly for the purpose of making the Humans look better by comparison.
Likewise, I think we were told that TNG was more PC than TOS...as we described...and how they are written (especially as we look at certain episodes, and character situations in this thread) humans have a long way to go even in the 24th century.

On that same note: Who is to say that Beverly Crusher is less professional if she wears a skirt (notice I didn't say a mini-skirt) and boots during her shift rather than the jumpsuit?

You'll have some fans who have gender or sexual hang-ups that would be opposed of the Doctor wearing an outfit, but at the same time they would be imposing their own values on the woman. Too, the 24th century is supposed to be 'PC'....why can't Crusher wear whatever she wants?

Which is just raising a double-standard I've noticed around here: We keep getting complaints about how the TNG Humans are too perfect, yet whenever they act like 20th century humans (who are, I'm assuming, the utterly perfect model of human existence no fiction is allowed to deviate from) all I hear are complaints.

What do you want, exactly? No one is going to go around speechifying about how worthless and horrible they are. And when you go around saving the universe, it's only HUMAN you'll get a little arrogant (in fact it's a deserved arrogance).

Should Picard go save the Galaxy and then go make a log entry stating "I'm a worthless bastard with no redeeming qualities whatsoever"?

Then Picard, making that log entry, would sound like he's not confident with himself. That would be a questionable character.;)

The humans from "The Neutral Zone"? The Businessman was a jerk, so he deserved the attitude he got. No one had any problems with the housewife and the musician, in fact they liked them. The only reason Picard had any problem was because he was busy dealing with the Romulan threat, which is TOTALLY understandable.

Really, when it comes down to it and it's a choice between a guy who is occasionally somewhat snobby but still undisguisedly heroic and an unrepentant Nazi, I'll choose the heroic snob.
We can also look to the way Geordi (as well as the Ensign or cadet who showed Scotty to his quarters) reacted to Scotty, whom was only a century behind.;)

I get what you're saying, but this idea of humans--again--comes from the thread topic. Certain episodes and characters were deemed racist by some, and not by others. (Being different racial backgrounds, different upbringings, we see different things). Even though we've hit upon the topic of racism, the topics of gender, sexual, and the like, would also have also be covered.

However, I think we've got to the point to where we're mixing the reality and the in-verse stuff together; somehow viewing all of them together critically...

On another note:

Abrams' nuTrek is Star Trek for 'today.'

20 years from now, the world will be a different place, and Star Trek will be a different animal than it is now. (And, the humans in that incarnation, as well as the aliens, will reflect who the writers/producers/directors are(and their racial/gender/sexual/religious make-up)....as well as what we know about science and the galaxy...and so forth...

We may have a gay/lesbian/bi-sexual/omnisexual Captain; or the crew may be majority Latin, Asian, Native-American and/or black...with a minority of those of white-European descent.

Furthermore: I recall a poster in the Trek Literature made a comment several months ago about writers having an agenda...(A lot of us being readers as well as writers, see this in books that are Trek-related as well as non-Trek-related).

A lot of what we saw in Trek is presumably the agenda of the aforementioned writers/directors/producers, etc. Too, speaking of TNG...it was produced in 1987-1994(?)...not counting the films.

A lot of things have changed since then, namely the internet (which I mentioned in another post) where varying viewpoints are coming out...
 
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No, I don't think they are too perfect, and I like when characters have flaws. I think that the Trek writers have sometimes been guilty (especially in early TNG) of trying to make them look better than everyone else, and they tried to do that by making everyone else ridiculously stupid so the Enterprise crew would look better by comparison. "The Neutral Zone" was written with the obvious intention of showing how backwards and primitive 20th century humans were, and how ridiculous they would seem to the advanced and developed 24th century humanity. We were not supposed to see that Picard is only human and can be arrogant, we were obviously meant to share in his annoyance and to laugh at those relics of the old humanity, which were made into total caricatures in order to achieve that. Which all makes "The Neutral Zone" one of the worst episodes of season 1, IMO.

I like it when characters are flawed, I don't like it when the writing is.

Fortunately, these tendencies are subdued in the later seasons on TNG.

Oh man...I had to quit watching that documentary. Ewwwwwww. :puke:
That documentary is well worth watching, I remember watching it as a child in a cinema when it first came out... it shows all the facets of the animal world, and there are some really beautiful and heartbreaking stories there, like the doe mourning her fawn, or a story about a couple of herons - the female injured her wing and couldn't fly with the rest of her flock to the south, and her partner, who was healthy, remained behind with her
and died frozen in the lake
It really makes you realize that humans don't have the monopoly on things like love and devotion.
 
In "The Neutral Zone", Riker said there was not much to redeem "them" as opposed to just singling out the businessman, who was pretty annoying by the way.

I tend to lean towards Anwar's attitude with it could be much much worse compared to other species.

At the same time there some glaring examples- Data was actually going to disassembled whether he liked it or not-he had to fight for his very survival, because Starfleet believed he was piece of technology, complex, but technology nonetheless.

Even later, after he got his full rights, remember the episode with the exocomps?

Picard said they would "strip him down to his bare wires" to find out why he did what he did. I thought Data was granted full rights as a Federation citizen and a sentient being?


23-24th century human attitudes- you know, when the show was on, it was easy not to notice anything unusual.

But in hindsight when you can watch the reruns, you can pick out those peculiarities.

The funny thing is those attitudes are seen as natural, normal dialog.

It was pretty obvious that in Star Trek 6, the Enterprise crew had some type of prejudice attitudes towards Klingons, the dialog after the dinner confirms that.

One moment the writing leads us to think 24th century humans have evolved beyond arrogance, impatience, violence and such, and then later, that is specifically what you see.
 
In "The Neutral Zone", Riker said there was not much to redeem "them" as opposed to just singling out the businessman, who was pretty annoying by the way.

I tend to lean towards Anwar's attitude with it could be much much worse compared to other species.

At the same time there some glaring examples- Data was actually going to disassembled whether he liked it or not-he had to fight for his very survival, because Starfleet believed he was piece of technology, complex, but technology nonetheless.

Even later, after he got his full rights, remember the episode with the exocomps?

Picard said they would "strip him down to his bare wires" to find out why he did what he did. I thought Data was granted full rights as a Federation citizen and a sentient being?


23-24th century human attitudes- you know, when the show was on, it was easy not to notice anything unusual.

But in hindsight when you can watch the reruns, you can pick out those peculiarities.

The funny thing is those attitudes are seen as natural, normal dialog.

It was pretty obvious that in Star Trek 6, the Enterprise crew had some type of prejudice attitudes towards Klingons, the dialog after the dinner confirms that.

One moment the writing leads us to think 24th century humans have evolved beyond arrogance, impatience, violence and such, and then later, that is specifically what you see.

All that is true...;)
 
Oh man...I had to quit watching that documentary. Ewwwwwww. :puke:
That documentary is well worth watching, I remember watching it as a child in a cinema when it first came out... it shows all the facets of the animal world, and there are some really beautiful and heartbreaking stories there, like the doe mourning her fawn, or a story about a couple of herons - the female injured her wing and couldn't fly with the rest of her flock to the south, and her partner, who was healthy, remained behind with her
and died frozen in the lake
It really makes you realize that humans don't have the monopoly on things like love and devotion.

Oh, I understand that point...I just have a problem with blood. (I also can't watch shows with people being operated on and stuff like that, either.)
 
Oh man...I had to quit watching that documentary. Ewwwwwww. :puke:
That documentary is well worth watching, I remember watching it as a child in a cinema when it first came out... it shows all the facets of the animal world, and there are some really beautiful and heartbreaking stories there, like the doe mourning her fawn, or a story about a couple of herons - the female injured her wing and couldn't fly with the rest of her flock to the south, and her partner, who was healthy, remained behind with her
and died frozen in the lake
It really makes you realize that humans don't have the monopoly on things like love and devotion.

Oh, I understand that point...I just have a problem with blood. (I also can't watch shows with people being operated on and stuff like that, either.)

Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red... we're all pretty disgusting on the inside :)
 
That documentary is well worth watching, I remember watching it as a child in a cinema when it first came out... it shows all the facets of the animal world, and there are some really beautiful and heartbreaking stories there, like the doe mourning her fawn, or a story about a couple of herons - the female injured her wing and couldn't fly with the rest of her flock to the south, and her partner, who was healthy, remained behind with her
and died frozen in the lake
It really makes you realize that humans don't have the monopoly on things like love and devotion.

Oh, I understand that point...I just have a problem with blood. (I also can't watch shows with people being operated on and stuff like that, either.)

Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red... we're all pretty disgusting on the inside :)

^^

I beg to differ.

Humans as a biological species are pretty interesting on the inside. (Of course, it does get messy when an individual has to be 'repaired'...due to one not taking care of his/herself, or because of a medical condition, and so forth)...
 
Oh, I understand that point...I just have a problem with blood. (I also can't watch shows with people being operated on and stuff like that, either.)

Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red... we're all pretty disgusting on the inside :)

^^

I beg to differ.

Humans as a biological species are pretty interesting on the inside. (Of course, it does get messy when an individual has to be 'repaired'...due to one not taking care of his/herself, or because of a medical condition, and so forth)...

Have you smelled bile before? Ick. And let's not mention the digestive process from start to finish!
 
Oh, I understand that point...I just have a problem with blood. (I also can't watch shows with people being operated on and stuff like that, either.)

Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red... we're all pretty disgusting on the inside :)

^^

I beg to differ.

Humans as a biological species are pretty interesting on the inside. (Of course, it does get messy when an individual has to be 'repaired'...due to one not taking care of his/herself, or because of a medical condition, and so forth)...

Interesting to read about, I agree, but I just can't watch images of things like that, without feeling queasy.
 
Have you smelled bile before? Ick. And let's not mention the digestive process from start to finish!

I'm speaking in general, broad terms: Humans are an interesting creation, on the inside as well as the outside.

Sure, there are some who set certain standards based on skin color, religion, beliefs, etc...but we are a diverse species...and there is a minority in this world that celebrates that.;)

Don't get me wrong, if we get technical on how things work: Digestive, wastes, mutations, etc...yes, things can get unsettling.

Black, White, Brown, Yellow, Red... we're all pretty disgusting on the inside :)

^^

I beg to differ.

Humans as a biological species are pretty interesting on the inside. (Of course, it does get messy when an individual has to be 'repaired'...due to one not taking care of his/herself, or because of a medical condition, and so forth)...

Interesting to read about, I agree, but I just can't watch images of things like that, without feeling queasy.

That's understandable.
 
I have been on other forums where the racism thing has been bought up in other programmes or books. I once saw on a harry Potter forum that the books were racist because a girl dumped a boy (obviously they were from different racial backgrounds}. But they forgot to mention that at the end ofthe books that the same discriminated against group was in the most powerful postion of this imaginary world. It appears to me that if you want to find fault with something you can.


True. If you want to, you can prove anything and then the contrary with maths and statistics.

If Harry Potter is anything, it's against racism.
 
I have been on other forums where the racism thing has been bought up in other programmes or books. I once saw on a harry Potter forum that the books were racist because a girl dumped a boy (obviously they were from different racial backgrounds}. But they forgot to mention that at the end ofthe books that the same discriminated against group was in the most powerful postion of this imaginary world. It appears to me that if you want to find fault with something you can.


True. If you want to, you can prove anything and then the contrary with maths and statistics.

If Harry Potter is anything, it's against racism.

Some say the same thing about TNG, but as we can see there are different viewpoints concerning if something is racist or not. (And that can be due to many factors, some of which have been brought up in this thread).
 
Of course it's an opinion and a perception thing. I just tend to believe that the filmmakers mean no harm. Same goes for novelists.
 
Of course it's an opinion and a perception thing. I just tend to believe that the filmmakers mean no harm. Same goes for novelists.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the writers and producers of TNG or whichever other show or movie actually set out to give a racist message. I think that when they are accusing TNG or whichever other show or movie of racism, they are arguing that it suffered from some racist cliches that its creators unconsciously used because those cliches are so deeply imbued in the culture that people don't even notice the implications. (Not that I agree in this case - I don't, particularly not with the idea of Geordi's character being an "African blind man" cliche, since there is no such cliche AFAIK... and one could argue that it's exactly that kind of unconscious prejudice that made the OP's friend make the connection between being blind and being inferior, which seems to be implied in the idea that making a black character blind is somehow an offense to black people).
 
Of course it's an opinion and a perception thing. I just tend to believe that the filmmakers mean no harm. Same goes for novelists.
It's bound to happen when you try and do a show that's supposed to be mutli-cultural/racial and only have a writing staff composed of just one race. Look at DS9, it took Avery Brooks to speak up and bring cultural heritage issues into the show. It took bringing in Jeri Taylor into Voyager to figure out how to write for a captian who is also a woman. So yers, a few underlying racist offenses get by without them being aware of it. They even do it to themselves with stuff like "Up The Long ladder" or "Fair Haven".
 
It's bound to happen when you try and do a show that's supposed to be mutli-cultural/racial and only have a writing staff composed of just one race. Look at DS9, it took Avery Brooks to speak up and bring cultural heritage issues into the show.

Can you be more....specific...?

It took bringing in Jeri Taylor into Voyager to figure out how to write for a captian who is also a woman. So yers, a few underlying racist offenses get by without them being aware of it.

Hmmm....

They even do it to themselves with stuff like "Up The Long ladder" or "Fair Haven".

What do they do to themselves? And who exactly are 'they'?

Lastly, which episode is 'Fair Haven? (Or are you referring to the episode, 'Haven'?)
 
Fair Haven was a Voyager episode, a holodeck episode in the Irish village of Fair Haven.
 
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