Vreenak

[Red Shirt]

That's pure speculation. Garak says otherwise.

Here you go: "Garak counters that while he did indeed hope that the rod would pass Vreenak's inspection, he realized that it was possible, even probable, that it would not."
That's not speculation on my part. Garak knew the fake recording all in likelihood was going to fail, hence the assassination. Is the "you're speculating" your go to troll phrase because I've seen you use that on other threads as well.

 

[locutus101]

Here you go: "Garak counters that while he did indeed hope that the rod would pass Vreenak's inspection, he realized that it was possible, even probable, that it would not."
That's not speculation on my part. Garak knew the fake recording all in likelihood was going to fail, hence the assassination. Is the "you're speculating" your go to troll phrase because I've seen you use that on other threads as well.

Don't talk about trolling. You're the one speculating about what Garak might have thought. I am just saying that beside his own statement, all we have is speculation. Now getting bellicose won't change that state of affairs one bit so you'd better stop.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I don't think there was a real plan or a fake plan. It was fool Vreenak or frame the Dominion in his assassination. It was a singular plan that allowed for contingencies, but the actions for both contingencies were interconnected. Indeed, if Garak had no intention of trying to fool Vreenak, there would be little need for an expert programmer.

 

[locutus101]

I don't think there was a real plan or a fake plan. It was fool Vreenak or frame the Dominion in his assassination. It was a singular plan that allowed for contingencies, but the actions for both contingencies were interconnected. Indeed, if Garak had no intention of trying to fool Vreenak, there would be little need for an expert programmer.

Sure, Sisko could have given him a rod of lesser quality which would have enraged him all the same and he would have left the station in a huff, just as he did. No need for tolar and his antics.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

one containing a sex program

Kira's body with Quark's face?

 

[locutus101]

Kira's body with Quark's face?

They already had that one.


I just realized that he needed a rod that looked like the real thing so I amended my post.

 

[Red Shirt]

Don't talk about trolling. You're the one speculating about what Garak might have thought. I am just saying that beside his own statement, all we have is speculation. Now getting bellicose won't change that state of affairs one bit so you'd better stop.

Repetitively stating you're speculating (repetition fallacy) or now, we are speculating coupled with an assumption of my how I may feel (assumptive fallacy) are fallacies. I posted the pertinent episode synopsis and you can cherry pick (another fallacy) one part of it to deflect the overall premise for the sake of trollish argumentum ad neusaem (another fallacy) and in the end, all you've offered are fallacies.

 

[locutus101]

Repetitively stating you're speculating (repetition fallacy) or now, we are speculating coupled with an assumption of my how I may feel (assumptive fallacy) are fallacies. I posted the pertinent episode synopsis and you can cherry pick (another fallacy) one part of it to deflect the overall premise for the sake of trollish argumentum ad neusaem (another fallacy) and in the end, all you've offered are fallacies.

I think I am done arguing with you. Find someone else to play verbal Ping-Pong with.

 

[kkt]

What if Vreenak got on subspace to his friends and colleagues on Romulus while still at DS9 telling them all about the fake data rod Sisko tried to pass off on him? Quite possible, and what was Garak's contingency plan then?

 

[locutus101]

What if Vreenak got on subspace to his friends and colleagues on Romulus while still at DS9 telling them all about the fake data rod Sisko tried to pass off on him? Quite possible, and what was Garak's contingency plan then?

That's what I thought. I guess it's an oversight by the writers, because you could argue secrecy since Vreenak wasn't officially on DS9 but I don't think he'd be too worried about that if he was enraged by Sisko's deception and wanted to make him pay for it.

However, it's possible that Garak killed the guards and then Vreenak as he entered his ship (where supposedly he needed to be in order to send a subspace message) and then sent the ship away using some sort of remote control device.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I guess it's an oversight by the writers

IDK. There would be some technobabble solution that would make getting a message out impossible, like the area around the station is being jammed, the protocols for traveling under cloak preclude sending a message, etc.

 

[OpenMaw]

That's pure speculation. Garak says otherwise.

Garak says a lot of things.

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Telling the truth? He almost never tells the complete truth. He broke his own personality into two halves "Elim" and "Garak" and told the same story three different ways at three different times. Not to mention when he did work for Tain he was a pro at interrogation, assassination, and infiltration. Assassination being the important one here.

When he says he hoped it would pass, it's very clear he means in the Hail Mary sense. You don't base your clandestine attempt to ensure an entire political power joins your side in a war on mere hope. You base it on something that's likely to work. IE, plant fake evidence that makes your side look -bad- (edit: er, I mean "good" ...ah-hah..)

 

[locutus101]

IDK. There would be some technobabble solution that would make getting a message out impossible, like the area around the station is being jammed, the protocols for traveling under cloak preclude sending a message, etc.

Writers remember that! Technobabble is your friend! Use it for good but never for evil.

 

[Jedman67]

If Garak could have planted a bomb, he could have easily sabotaged Vreeneks radio. And in order for the data rod to survive and vreenek to not, all he needed was an explosion powerful enough to breach the hull. A couple of strategically placed explosives to mimic JemHadar disruptor fire and we're all good.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The problem I have with the notion that Garak's "real plan" was to kill Vreenak is that it makes him out to be particularly linear. Indeed, it makes him out to be an incredibly inflexible spy, when he ought to pursue multiple avenues and objetives at any given time. His lying--and his practicing at lying--reveals someone who is always working different angles of the same problem. Perhaps I can go further: playing complicated games that unfold over the long term seems to be a unique trait of the Cardassian political class, and we should be no more surprised that Garak might both fool Vreenak and kill him than Dukat might both help Sisko and pursue an alliance with the Dominion. They keep several balls up in the air.

 

[Shikarnov]

The problem I have with the notion that Garak's "real plan" was to kill Vreenak is that it makes him out to be particularly linear. Indeed, it makes him out to be an incredibly inflexible spy, when he ought to pursue multiple avenues and objetives at any given time. His lying--and his practicing at lying--reveals someone who is always working different angles of the same problem. Perhaps I can go further: playing complicated games that unfold over the long term seems to be a unique trait of the Cardassian political class, and we should be no more surprised that Garak might both fool Vreenak and kill him than Dukat might both help Sisko and pursue an alliance with the Dominion. They keep several balls up in the air.

I don't think linear is entirely bad.

In chess, for example -- at least at higher levels of play -- there is a certain progression that follows an opening move. This is why masters can claim, with confidence, checkmate in X moves. The chain of events is prescribed, and that they can see what others cannot it is what makes them masters. I think Garak is such a person.

Maybe he didn't know if the rod would pass inspection or not. Maybe he didn't care. Maybe Tolar and Vreenak were pawns that were always destined for sacrifice in setting up a game board that would, ultimately, manipulate the Romulan government into submission. Consider that ordinance Garak delivered wasn't the data rod at all: it was a warhead filled with mystery and fear.

Arguably, if the rod had passed muster on Vreenak's shuttle, and Garak allowed Vreenak to live, it might have been less of a sure thing because there would be even more advanced analysis available on Romulus -- thereby increasing the risk of detection. Moreoever, there would be no mystery for the paranoid Romulans to solve, and no fear over what they don't know. And then they'd have Vreenak's impressions/suspicions of Sisko, and their general distrust of the Federation as a source of the data. Even if the forgery was perfect, they'd have good reason to doubt, and no reason to act hastily.

In order to really get the Romulans' attention, Vreenak had to go. And I think Garak knew that from the very beginning. It was just a matter of setting up the circumstances of his death, and the right point at which the pawn should fall.

 

[TheSeeker]

Is the "you're speculating" your go to troll phrase because I've seen you use that on other threads as well.

This kind of talk is not helpful to discussion. Attack the post, not the poster. Calling another poster a troll is grounds for issuing a warning so consider this a friendly warning not to do it again, or an actual warning will follow.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

there would be even more advanced analysis available on Romulus -- thereby increasing the risk of detection.

With every bit of technobabble, the response is always more technobabble. The writers could have written their way around it.

Consider that ordinance Garak delivered wasn't the data rod at all: it was a warhead filled with mystery and fear.

Then he didn't need Tolar: any programmer would do. And he didn't need Vreenak: any dead Senator would do. If Garak was not committed first to trying to convince the most ardently pro-Dominion member of the Romulan government, and if all he was trying to do was generate outrage, a more impressionable choice would have been better. Indeed, contacting Vreenak posed more risks than other members of the Romulan government.

 

[Paradise City]

I'm sure Garak did have a tunnel vision attitude to assassinate the senator and implicate the Dominion. He's an extraordinarily ruthless man. A less advanced rod might have been exposed even in the wreckage. Best make the rod the best it can be to cover as many bases as one can.

Otherwise Vreenak might have travelled home undecided about the rod but the powerful Tal Shiar labs might have sussed it. As it was, this precision rod wasn't so precise afterall - it was sussed out on the spot by a little crew of himself and a couple of aides! Garak by killing the Senator got a far greater chance of a positive result far quicker than if he actually had much faith in the persuasiveness of the rod itself to seal the deal.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

You still don't need Vreenak.

ETA:The technological arguments are more or less superfluous. Technology in Trek is always as fast, as strong, as reliable as the plot needs it to be. You can't beam through shields ... unless you really need to. You can't beam at warp ... unless you need to. The recording is unimpeachable ... unless you need it to be.