And the definiteive Voyager Torpedo roundup.
Whoever did this had a lot of free time. But it's excellent
Whoever did this had a lot of free time. But it's excellent
Voyager torpedo roundup
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
Yes well done but I would dispute some of it. They counted photon bursts as torpedoes which i wouldn't count. And in the scene from scorpion I would not count those 13. My assumption was that at the most they used the torpedo casings only which could be easily replicated. There were also some scenes where they didn't say how many were fired so this person just assumed it was three or four. This was a fun video but overall not accurate.
I know overall the torpedo count is way off. There was a quote from a producer saying they wished they never gave a specific numbed because they knew people would be counting. Personally I'm fine with the assumption that they were able to replace them either by finding a way to replicate them or by trading for them.
I know overall the torpedo count is way off. There was a quote from a producer saying they wished they never gave a specific numbed because they knew people would be counting. Personally I'm fine with the assumption that they were able to replace them either by finding a way to replicate them or by trading for them.
Yeah but would people in the Delta Quadrant even have photon torpedoes to trade that would fit a Federation ship?
They may have something compatible that they could convert. I'm assuming that the cases can be replicated since that's just metal, and they were able to trade for what they couldn't replicate.
OK that's fair enough.
I still thought the video was fun despite all that. I don't think they were taking it too seriously. BTW I've never seen that bit of Janeway manually firing a torpedo.
Oh yes the video was fun. But the torpedo count is a common criticism of the show. I do agree that they never should have given an exact number in the beginning
Well they did give a number, it's not the viewers fault that the writers decided to ignore it. They could at least have done a line drop saying they had fund away around their issues with not be able to replace them.
I.e Captain's Log, Engineering reports they have found away to replace our torpedeos.
The exact details of how aren't important.
I.e Captain's Log, Engineering reports they have found away to replace our torpedeos.
The exact details of how aren't important.
I agree, the exact details are not important. When they mention reapplying i just assume that included something they could replenish torpedoes with
The main problem is, as I see it, sloppy writing and a lack of real interest from the writers.
There are at least two options in a case like that:
One is to stick with the premise.
If there's stated that Voyager only has two shuttles and a limited amount of torpedoes, then that should be considered for everey episode. When an episode i s written in which a shuttle is destroyed, then it should be clear after that that Voyager only has one shuttle left, the same every time a torpedo is fired. When the shuttles are destroyed and the torpedoes are gone, then they are gone and that must be considered in the upcoming episodes.
The same with Voyager being damaged and hit by paser fire and torpedoes in each and every episode. I mean, a ship like Voyager is like a computer. Now if I kick and abuse my computer each and every day, it will sooner or later stop functioning. That should also be considered during the writing of a story so in that case Voyager would at least look more damaged for a a while, some of the consoles might stop working or malfunction and there would be reparation crew seen on the ship and outside the ship from time to time. After "Deadlock" when the ship was severely damaged, the ship would have looked a bit damaged for at least one or two episodes after that.
Now, what if this doesn't work?
Then the other scenario is:
Change the premise-but do it smart.
If the premise with only two shuttles and a limited amount of torpedoes doesn't work in the long run, well, then come up with a plausible explanation why and how it's possible to build new shuttles and torpedoes, like my idea of the Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team. The material needed for the rebuilding could be explained by using ore from asteroids, from wrecks of other ships or from trade with other planets and such.
The same with the damaged ship. If it's impossible to show up workng crews and/or showing a damaged bridge in two episodes, then don't write scenarios where the ship is shot to pieces in each and every episode. Instead, find some other way to create excitement. Simple as that!
As for changing premises, The Doctor's mobile emitter was such a thing. A bit over the top maybe but a decent way to get the Doc more mobile.
The problems with Voyager's writers were that they did seem to underestimate the intelligence of the viewers. In situations like those with the torpedoes it was always "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice". But the viewers DID notice which might have been one reason for the fading popularity, not only for Voyager but for 24th century Trek in common.
Which was a pity because 24th century Star Trek was the high spot of Star Trek!
There are at least two options in a case like that:
One is to stick with the premise.
If there's stated that Voyager only has two shuttles and a limited amount of torpedoes, then that should be considered for everey episode. When an episode i s written in which a shuttle is destroyed, then it should be clear after that that Voyager only has one shuttle left, the same every time a torpedo is fired. When the shuttles are destroyed and the torpedoes are gone, then they are gone and that must be considered in the upcoming episodes.
The same with Voyager being damaged and hit by paser fire and torpedoes in each and every episode. I mean, a ship like Voyager is like a computer. Now if I kick and abuse my computer each and every day, it will sooner or later stop functioning. That should also be considered during the writing of a story so in that case Voyager would at least look more damaged for a a while, some of the consoles might stop working or malfunction and there would be reparation crew seen on the ship and outside the ship from time to time. After "Deadlock" when the ship was severely damaged, the ship would have looked a bit damaged for at least one or two episodes after that.
Now, what if this doesn't work?
Then the other scenario is:
Change the premise-but do it smart.
If the premise with only two shuttles and a limited amount of torpedoes doesn't work in the long run, well, then come up with a plausible explanation why and how it's possible to build new shuttles and torpedoes, like my idea of the Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team. The material needed for the rebuilding could be explained by using ore from asteroids, from wrecks of other ships or from trade with other planets and such.
The same with the damaged ship. If it's impossible to show up workng crews and/or showing a damaged bridge in two episodes, then don't write scenarios where the ship is shot to pieces in each and every episode. Instead, find some other way to create excitement. Simple as that!
As for changing premises, The Doctor's mobile emitter was such a thing. A bit over the top maybe but a decent way to get the Doc more mobile.
The problems with Voyager's writers were that they did seem to underestimate the intelligence of the viewers. In situations like those with the torpedoes it was always "Ah, never mind. The viewers won't notice". But the viewers DID notice which might have been one reason for the fading popularity, not only for Voyager but for 24th century Trek in common.
Which was a pity because 24th century Star Trek was the high spot of Star Trek!
Another mention of the shuttle building team 
. It was mentioned in the show than they can rebuild shuttles.
At the end of Deadlock they flat out talk about how they've been making repairs and how it will take a while longer until everything is done
. It was mentioned in the show than they can rebuild shuttles.At the end of Deadlock they flat out talk about how they've been making repairs and how it will take a while longer until everything is done
But the premise from the get-go was clear: it is possible to build more torpedoes and shuttles. After all, that's how Starfleet gets torpedoes and shuttles in the first place.
It then follows that there can only be a torpedo or shuttle shortage if the ship is cut off from the appropriate industries. Getting stranded in Delta won't achieve that yet, because aliens like Klingons and Ferengi (and suitably assisted Pakleds) can build torpedoes and shuttles, too. The heroes need to be stranded away from the Delta equivalent of halfway competent, halfway decent trading partners, then. And the first two seasons of the show nicely achieved that, by immersing the heroes in Kazon space.
There's no point in carrying the torpedo or shuttle count beyond the Nekrit Expanse. And indeed our heroes don't.
Timo Saloniemi
It then follows that there can only be a torpedo or shuttle shortage if the ship is cut off from the appropriate industries. Getting stranded in Delta won't achieve that yet, because aliens like Klingons and Ferengi (and suitably assisted Pakleds) can build torpedoes and shuttles, too. The heroes need to be stranded away from the Delta equivalent of halfway competent, halfway decent trading partners, then. And the first two seasons of the show nicely achieved that, by immersing the heroes in Kazon space.
There's no point in carrying the torpedo or shuttle count beyond the Nekrit Expanse. And indeed our heroes don't.
Timo Saloniemi
Right. We've seen them collecting supplies from planets, we've seen them trading with aliens, we've seen them build the Delta Flyer from scratch TWICE. So the canon fact is that they CAN build shuttles. And it's a fair and simple assumption that if they can build shuttles then they can build torpedo casings and that they were able to either trade for what they needed to arm the torpedoes or they came up with a way to replicate it
From DS9 "Tribunal" we get a good clue as to why there'd need to be a count for the first two seasons: the warheads of the torpedoes (even when supposedly empty of any antimatter) are commodities worth stealing by the Maquis who for their part are capable of maintaining a fleet of spacecraft and possess basic replicators. Perhaps it's the complex forcefields in them that make them nontrivial to make in your garage?
But while the heroes may have been as badly off in the early seasons of VOY as the Maquis were in the early seasons of DS9, both gained access to better resources soon enough. The Maquis stole what they needed to make their own stuff; Janeway finally got some civilized friends.
And the Delta Flyer fires its own brand of torpedoes. These can't be the ones fired by the mothership, for simple reasons of scale, so the DF also gives us our direct proof of the ability of the heroes to manufacture torpedoes later on.
Timo Saloniemi
But while the heroes may have been as badly off in the early seasons of VOY as the Maquis were in the early seasons of DS9, both gained access to better resources soon enough. The Maquis stole what they needed to make their own stuff; Janeway finally got some civilized friends.
And the Delta Flyer fires its own brand of torpedoes. These can't be the ones fired by the mothership, for simple reasons of scale, so the DF also gives us our direct proof of the ability of the heroes to manufacture torpedoes later on.
Timo Saloniemi
Yes! Therefore the Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team should have been established and mentioned more specifically.Another mention of the shuttle building team
At the end of Deadlock they flat out talk about how they've been making repairs and how it will take a while longer until everything is done
When it comes to the events in "Deadlock", the ship was so damaged that it would have taken weeks to repair, maybe more.
They DID mention it. And they showed them building two advanced shuttles from scratch. How much more do you need?
There was no timeframe given in Deadlock. Who's to say it didn't take weeks?
But this is were the writing fails, we are told that they have no way of replacing their torpedeos which if you strip it right down to basics it's a Warp ship with M/AM warhead. Which menas if they can't replace something as simple as that then replacing something more complex like a shuttlecraft should also be beyond them.
The writers could have and should have done a better job of explaining why they suddenly can otherwise it looks like an ass-pull.
Explaining why treats the audaince with some degree of respect, ignoring an issue you imposed on yourself because it's inconveniant treats your audiance with contempt.
Really if you can't write to a self imposed limitation don't impose those limitations upon yourself. If they had never said they had "no way of replacing their torpedeos" then we wouldn't be even having this debate.
If you read a book and Chapter (episode) one this can't be done, and in Chapter (episode) 46 they do it without explaining why, most of us would describe it as sloppy writting.
The writers could have and should have done a better job of explaining why they suddenly can otherwise it looks like an ass-pull.
Explaining why treats the audaince with some degree of respect, ignoring an issue you imposed on yourself because it's inconveniant treats your audiance with contempt.
Really if you can't write to a self imposed limitation don't impose those limitations upon yourself. If they had never said they had "no way of replacing their torpedeos" then we wouldn't be even having this debate.
If you read a book and Chapter (episode) one this can't be done, and in Chapter (episode) 46 they do it without explaining why, most of us would describe it as sloppy writting.
I have to give you one point on "Deadlock" since the events in that episode took place at Stardate 49548.7 ( 19 July 2972) and the events in the following episode "Innocence" took place at Stardate 49578 (30 July 2172) so they did at least have 11 days to fix the ship. However, the whole crew must have worked day and night for at least one week.
That seems right. With the ship severely damaged why WOULDN'T the whole crew work to make repairs???
Voyager's inconsistent torpedo count and their infinite supply of shuttle crafts (stole that from SFDebris), go right along with:
The supposed limited supply of replicator rations.
Low supply of detrium, only for Tom Paris to say in season 7 that it can be found anywhere.
The EMH being impossible to back up or duplicate and yet in Living Witness they did so.
The power systems on the holodeck being incompatible with the rest of the ship and yet in Fair Haven the ship pulled power from the Holodeck when things got desperate.
These all make up the long list of self-imposed limitations the writers ignored when it was convenient for them to.
The supposed limited supply of replicator rations.
Low supply of detrium, only for Tom Paris to say in season 7 that it can be found anywhere.
The EMH being impossible to back up or duplicate and yet in Living Witness they did so.
The power systems on the holodeck being incompatible with the rest of the ship and yet in Fair Haven the ship pulled power from the Holodeck when things got desperate.
These all make up the long list of self-imposed limitations the writers ignored when it was convenient for them to.
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