Voyager Relaunch question
- Thread starter AuntKate
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Hmm... I've been debating posting in this thread again, now that it's moved into some... touchy territory. But, what the hell, I'm bored (a large amount of my posting here gets done while I'm at work 
).
A book has no such considerations. Obviously, to kill someone who is a main from one of the shows is a big deal, and should not be done lightly, but I would disagree strongly with the notion that it simply shouldn't be done, period. If only bit parts and book originals ever die... it's just more red-shirting. When an actor wanted to leave, or in similar situations, sometimes the producers would take advantage of that change in production reality (the character will be gone anyway) to institute a normally off-limits change in the fictional reality (the character will die). This is why I like Jadzia's death in DS9 s6: it's not that I wanted her to die or disliked the character, but I thought the story was good, and the main characters SHOULDN'T just always come through unscathed.
Coming on strong, certainly, but I will say (and I am being completely honest here) that I have personally observed what Gotham is talking about here. I DO see this outrage (well beyond what is reasonable IMO; it's fine to be upset that she died, but the attitude that PocketBooks has wronged someone in some serious way is what I'm referring to) over this. And... I honestly don't really understand it.
To be fair, though, when Kirk died on-screen in 1994, there was no TrekBBS, and when Data died on-screen in 2002, I had no idea this place existed. If such outrage was present at the time for either of those deaths, I wouldn't see it or know about it (since there was no BBS in the first case, and I wasn't aware of the place in the second). So it could have been the same. The outrage over Janeway's death is notable because the event occurred more recently. But in both of those cases, if the outrage over Kirk or Data's death reached these levels... I wouldn't understand that, either.
Note that I wouldn't think for a moment that the Sisko fandom (or DS9 fandom) is "large enough", either. And that's my favorite Trek show. Really, no single fandom would be large enough in this context, I wouldn't think, except for certain TOS and TNG characters.
Pocket's concern is telling compelling stories that people will pay money to read. They don't always succeed, but that is their goal, and decisions such as the one to kill Janeway are part of that. I still don't personally buy the "conspiracy" theory about Clark not liking Janeway and deciding to kill her for that reason. I don't even think Peter David tried to write something that would tick off Janeway fans or something like that. I do think he's a bad Trek writer, and I do think it was an unwise move to give him the assignment to write her death if he indeed dislikes the character. But it's nothing more than that, if you ask me.
If someone wanted to just write a series of AU novels where Janeway did come back (or didn't die in the first place), would that be enough? For that matter, isn't she alive in the STO continuity? I thought someone mentioned that. I couldn't say for sure, because I detest STO and everything about its ridiculous backstory, so I don't know all the details.
Anyway, my point is, that kind of scenario is the only way in which Kirk "came back." He's ONLY alive in the Shatnerverse novels. Same with Data: he's ONLY alive in the Countdown/STO garbage. The "filmed canon" dropped it entirely (since Nemesis was the last TNG production), and the "main" novelverse has established B4 as his own seperate, individualized android. Ergo, in the "main" Trekverse, both Kirk and Data stayed dead. B4 has some Data-like qualities, but if THAT counts as Data "coming back", then Jadzia "came back" in Ezri.
Furthermore, Sisko was brought back because they pretty much SAID he would return before the credits rolled on the final ep.
And the chart also lists Kes with a red "semi-dead" bar, which is preposterous (especially while putting Kirk in a green bar as "Maybe").
I agree that Trek isn't always in top form when it comes to male/female roles, treatment of male/female characters, etc (though on the flipside, there are also some shining examples of strong, well-realized female characters with little or no strings attached)... I think a much stronger case can be made (and the chart does address this, to its credit) for examining how they all died. But this ratio of male vs. female "resurrection"... pretty insignificant.
). That does depend on how you define "return". People have accused Trek at times of bringing back characters from the dead too often, counting Sela/Yar, and B4/Data. I don't even necessarily agree with categorizing some of those "returns" as such, but I felt it was worth pointing out. There IS a sense in Trek that if a character died, it doesn't mean we "will never hear from them in some way" again.
I can't comment on the VOY books being better now, since I haven't read any. But, I have to say that technically, what I bolded is true in my view. There are certainly people that would like to see her come back, but that in and of itself isn't enough to justify it (in fact, "some fans no doubt want this" should NEVER be used - all by itself - to determine a creative decision). In addition, I think that this:
is VITALLY important, and very true. The shows have always had a problem with "red-shirting"; there's a reason why the term was named for TOS. Part of this overall problem is another thing that can be called "main character shields." Scores and scores of no-names, minor characters, and bit parts die, yet our heroes come through EVERY crisis, EVERY battle intact. Now, a TV show (or movie) has certain considerations that partly dictate how this can be handled; you can't just kill a main character played by an actor with a contract on a whim. Even so, I still think Trek has failed in this regard to some degree overall. Even with those considerations, they could have done better than they did (again, TOS especially). However...
A book has no such considerations. Obviously, to kill someone who is a main from one of the shows is a big deal, and should not be done lightly, but I would disagree strongly with the notion that it simply shouldn't be done, period. If only bit parts and book originals ever die... it's just more red-shirting. When an actor wanted to leave, or in similar situations, sometimes the producers would take advantage of that change in production reality (the character will be gone anyway) to institute a normally off-limits change in the fictional reality (the character will die). This is why I like Jadzia's death in DS9 s6: it's not that I wanted her to die or disliked the character, but I thought the story was good, and the main characters SHOULDN'T just always come through unscathed.
Ouch.
Coming on strong, certainly, but I will say (and I am being completely honest here) that I have personally observed what Gotham is talking about here. I DO see this outrage (well beyond what is reasonable IMO; it's fine to be upset that she died, but the attitude that PocketBooks has wronged someone in some serious way is what I'm referring to) over this. And... I honestly don't really understand it.
To be fair, though, when Kirk died on-screen in 1994, there was no TrekBBS, and when Data died on-screen in 2002, I had no idea this place existed. If such outrage was present at the time for either of those deaths, I wouldn't see it or know about it (since there was no BBS in the first case, and I wasn't aware of the place in the second). So it could have been the same. The outrage over Janeway's death is notable because the event occurred more recently. But in both of those cases, if the outrage over Kirk or Data's death reached these levels... I wouldn't understand that, either.
No single person's opinion matters, in this context. And as far as I can tell, the Janeway fandom (or VOY fandom) isn't large enough for PocketBooks to consider "people will be upset about Janeway's death and stop buying books" as a major factor.
Note that I wouldn't think for a moment that the Sisko fandom (or DS9 fandom) is "large enough", either. And that's my favorite Trek show. Really, no single fandom would be large enough in this context, I wouldn't think, except for certain TOS and TNG characters.
Pocket's concern is telling compelling stories that people will pay money to read. They don't always succeed, but that is their goal, and decisions such as the one to kill Janeway are part of that. I still don't personally buy the "conspiracy" theory about Clark not liking Janeway and deciding to kill her for that reason. I don't even think Peter David tried to write something that would tick off Janeway fans or something like that. I do think he's a bad Trek writer, and I do think it was an unwise move to give him the assignment to write her death if he indeed dislikes the character. But it's nothing more than that, if you ask me.
I'm with you here. I've said before that I'm not that bothered by the death itself (honestly, the only main character from the shows whose death would really, TRULY upset me is Ezri, and even then, I'd keep reading the books after her death if the stories still kept my interest). But if you ARE going to kill a main, make it a hell of a novel. And yeah... I think a show character should be killed in a book ABOUT their show (or, in the case of someone like Ezri who has moved on, it should be in either a DS9-centric book, or an Aventine-centric book).I have said before that her death isn't what really gets me - it's mostly the how and the why. If they reversed Janeway's and Picard's roles in BD, can you honestly tell me there wouldn't be an uproar? I'd be mad if Picard got treated that way as well. I'd actually probably be just as mad. Oh, wait - even better - what if BD was labeled as a Voyager book and Picard and Janeway's roles were reversed? But don't worry, it's all the same continuity anyway, right?
Yeah, considering that I don't follow any American comics at all, and never really have, it was amazing just how hard it was to NOT hear all about some major character death from whichever series...
froot said:
Ehhhhh... I think some of this is a pretty big stretch.
If someone wanted to just write a series of AU novels where Janeway did come back (or didn't die in the first place), would that be enough? For that matter, isn't she alive in the STO continuity? I thought someone mentioned that. I couldn't say for sure, because I detest STO and everything about its ridiculous backstory, so I don't know all the details.
Anyway, my point is, that kind of scenario is the only way in which Kirk "came back." He's ONLY alive in the Shatnerverse novels. Same with Data: he's ONLY alive in the Countdown/STO garbage. The "filmed canon" dropped it entirely (since Nemesis was the last TNG production), and the "main" novelverse has established B4 as his own seperate, individualized android. Ergo, in the "main" Trekverse, both Kirk and Data stayed dead. B4 has some Data-like qualities, but if THAT counts as Data "coming back", then Jadzia "came back" in Ezri.Furthermore, Sisko was brought back because they pretty much SAID he would return before the credits rolled on the final ep.
And the chart also lists Kes with a red "semi-dead" bar, which is preposterous (especially while putting Kirk in a green bar as "Maybe").
I agree that Trek isn't always in top form when it comes to male/female roles, treatment of male/female characters, etc (though on the flipside, there are also some shining examples of strong, well-realized female characters with little or no strings attached)... I think a much stronger case can be made (and the chart does address this, to its credit) for examining how they all died. But this ratio of male vs. female "resurrection"... pretty insignificant.
I have said before that her death isn't what really gets me - it's mostly the how and the why. If they reversed Janeway's and Picard's roles in BD, can you honestly tell me there wouldn't be an uproar? I'd be mad if Picard got treated that way as well. I'd actually probably be just as mad. Oh, wait - even better - what if BD was labeled as a Voyager book and Picard and Janeway's roles were reversed? But don't worry, it's all the same continuity anyway, right?
That's an excellent point. Janeway fans are always marginalized as lunatics for complaining about her death but just imagine..
A very badly written Voyager book comes out. Picard is in it, though not recognizable as Picard because in every scene he is saying and doing stuff no can imagine Picard saying and doing.. he sounds like some kind of childish maniac most of the time. Then all of the sudden, for no good reason anyone can see, he takes himself off to a Borg cube and.. DIES. Yeah, he's dead now TNG fans and oh sorry we know you don't even like VOY most of the time but we killed him off in a VOY book because, hey, it's all the same continuity.
And that's it, PICARD IS DEAD FOR THE REST OF THE TREK STORIES.
Now tell me that TNG fans would be so incredibly "mature" about life and death as not to be very very pissed off and vocal about it.
Just flip it people and maybe you'll be less likely to see this as some fringe complaint from angry wimmin.
It's the way it is portrayed. ANOTHER falsehood, that only women give a rats about it.
It's the way it is portrayed. ANOTHER falsehood, that only women give a rats about it.
Oh, okay then.
Carry on.
*A-HEM*
It's the way it is portrayed. ANOTHER falsehood, that only women give a rats about it.
Oh, okay then.
Carry on.
<-----Look! It's Valeris! A MAN. And a member of the True Path. So peoples, it's stfu time about estrogen phaser rifles. Thank you.
Estrogen phaser rifles. I love it.
Look at all the novels of other series. Is the captain missing? Has Kirk disappeared from all TOS books after his death in Generations (whether Shatner writes the books or not)? Is Picard around? Sisko? Hasn't Trip been "restored" to the Enterprise relaunch--in spite of the fact that his death is "canon"?
Killing off a major character is a mistake that can be easily corrected. If Sisko was "supposed" to come back, then the same can be said for Janeway, who was "rescued" by Lady Q.
I agree with the posters who point out that new readers to the Voyager relaunch are not going to care at all about a new captain or characters, no matter how well they are written. TNG readers want to read about TNG characters. DS9 readers want to read about DS9 characters. Same for Voyager.
To sell more books, bring back Janeway. It's a no-brainer.
But this isn't really the question I asked. What I wondered was whether (and how well) Breyer was able to "repair" the OOC Janeway from Before Dishonor. Apparently she did the best she could.
Killing off a major character is a mistake that can be easily corrected. If Sisko was "supposed" to come back, then the same can be said for Janeway, who was "rescued" by Lady Q.
I agree with the posters who point out that new readers to the Voyager relaunch are not going to care at all about a new captain or characters, no matter how well they are written. TNG readers want to read about TNG characters. DS9 readers want to read about DS9 characters. Same for Voyager.
To sell more books, bring back Janeway. It's a no-brainer.
But this isn't really the question I asked. What I wondered was whether (and how well) Breyer was able to "repair" the OOC Janeway from Before Dishonor. Apparently she did the best she could.
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Sorry, AuntKate, I helped derail this pretty badly.
Full Circle a very heart-rending book, and I don't know if emo!Chakotay is your cup of tea or not, but I know you're a J/Cer, and Full Circle is an extremely J/C book. And Janeway is absolutely recognizable as herself. Beyer really, really tries to avoid getting too much into her actions in BD and focuses on the prequel adventure and the other characters' reactions instead. Obviously, she could only do so much, but she mostly leaves the parts she could not fix well alone.
It's heart-rending and done well. I think Cheshire on VAMB once mentioned that bringing Janeway back would actually be a bit of a cop-out considering how moving this book is for VOY fans. Of course, I'd still like her back
Anyway, it is a good read. If you can nab a copy at the library for free or something if you don't want to pay for it, I would really recommend reading it at least once, particularly to a J/Cer. It's actually directly related to the short story "Isabo's Shirt" from Distant Shores.
(I know the bit with the mirror is corny BUT I LOVE IT. I ADMIT IT. I even referenced it in a video of mine once because I am a huge sap.)
Also, estrogen phaser rifles.
And would this be a bad or awkward time to admit I like Magic: The Gathering?
While I can understand people being upset about Janeway's fate, I have to say that the sheer amount of venom (book-burnings, really?) is a real turn-off, and for those who are hoping for any objective discussion of the situation really does a lot of damage to the credibility of the posters in question.
If putting PAD in charge of killing a character he doesn't like was a questionable decision that shouldn't have been trusted, how are posters supposed to trust the arguments of those who either can't or won't speak about the situation without making grossly unfair generalizations about and personal attacks toward the author?
I'm glad to see that at least some posters have kept their criticisms even-handed, but some of the stuff here...if it was addressed at a fellow poster it would be considered flaming.
A little less unwarranted hostility towards someone whose motives we don't know and who isn't here to speak in his own defense would go a long way.
While I don't think BD painted Janeway in a great light, I'm at a loss as to how she was portrayed as being particularly out-of-character. It's not as though she hadn't been painted as headstrong and occasionally reckless during the run of VOY. Yeah, it sucks that this time she pays the price for it, but even the idea that she's reckless in this case is somewhat undermined by the point that the cube had already been extensively investigated prior to her arrival.
Instead of just blasting the book (and the author) how about some discussion of how you think it could have been improved without major plot changes or weak arguments such as "it could never have existed to begin with"? I believe the term is "constructive criticism".
If putting PAD in charge of killing a character he doesn't like was a questionable decision that shouldn't have been trusted, how are posters supposed to trust the arguments of those who either can't or won't speak about the situation without making grossly unfair generalizations about and personal attacks toward the author?
I'm glad to see that at least some posters have kept their criticisms even-handed, but some of the stuff here...if it was addressed at a fellow poster it would be considered flaming.
A little less unwarranted hostility towards someone whose motives we don't know and who isn't here to speak in his own defense would go a long way.
While I don't think BD painted Janeway in a great light, I'm at a loss as to how she was portrayed as being particularly out-of-character. It's not as though she hadn't been painted as headstrong and occasionally reckless during the run of VOY. Yeah, it sucks that this time she pays the price for it, but even the idea that she's reckless in this case is somewhat undermined by the point that the cube had already been extensively investigated prior to her arrival.
Instead of just blasting the book (and the author) how about some discussion of how you think it could have been improved without major plot changes or weak arguments such as "it could never have existed to begin with"? I believe the term is "constructive criticism".
I started that. I hope you know we're just farting around and joking. :O Actually going out and burning books of any kind, no matter how poopy they may be, is creepy Fahrenheit 451 territory. No one should ever stop or destroy literature based on personal opinions.
I just thought the term "book-burning-and-barbecue" had nice alteration as a joke. I don't think anyone here would ever advocate actually going to the public libraries and setting TrekLit books aflame. Refusing to buy books, or re-selling books, sure. That's our right as customers. But not that. Not ever that.
And that's the action I've taken with Peter David's books.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. It wasn't at all clear that you, at least, were speaking in jest...to me, anyhow.
FWIW, I agree with earlier comments that PAD's stories tend to be a bit OTT, but at this point if you read his stuff then that's kind of a matter of record I think, so to harp on it would be dead horse abuse.
That being said, any B5 fans who'd let BD stand in the way of their reading PAD's Centauri trilogy are just hurting themselves, IMNSHO.
Haven't read NF, though I'd like to take a shot at it. I don't mind Trek verging towards the comical if it's a good yarn. I liked Vendetta and Imzadi and Q-Squared myself, though again, they're PAD books and his style comes through a fair bit.
One bad book (for those who are -only- familiar with BD) does not a bad author make.
For me, it was hit-or-miss. When it was good, it was pretty good. But there are times when it's just too much or doesn't work. The mood can be inappropriate and not match with the scene.
Agreed with your first point (I have yet to read Vendetta and Q-Squared, and I couldn't get through the first Imzadi book, though the second one was somewhat interesting.)
Q-in-Law and The Captain's Daughter are *very* good books, and I would hold those up as examples of the good that PAD can do.
As to burning books.. well I paid for BD new, it's mine, if I want to use it to light my BBQ that's my business.
I bought PD's Bab5 books on ebay, but haven't gotten around to reading them yet. I won't be buying any more of his books new as my protest against B.D.
I have tried to read PAD and am not judging his writing based on one book. B.D. is at least the fourth book of his I've read or tried to read, possibly there were more.
Dead horse abuse? LOLOL the whole of Trek is a dead horse by now. But you know Trek.. maybe that horse is decomposing on the Genesis planet.
I bought PD's Bab5 books on ebay, but haven't gotten around to reading them yet. I won't be buying any more of his books new as my protest against B.D.
I have tried to read PAD and am not judging his writing based on one book. B.D. is at least the fourth book of his I've read or tried to read, possibly there were more.
Dead horse abuse? LOLOL the whole of Trek is a dead horse by now. But you know Trek.. maybe that horse is decomposing on the Genesis planet.
I've read the NF adventures in the MU and found those reasonably entertaining...again, a bit OTT, but I expected that...I mean really, it's PAD -and- it's the MU... I'd like to find out what the NF folks are "really" like.
If you're a Borg/Doomsday Machine fan or a Trelane/Q fan, Vendetta and Q-Squared are worth it, respectively. I don't think either of those goes as OTT as BD.
I'm curious about Imzadi II but am worried I'd be disappointed by it. At the time the first book came out TNG was still pretty new, IIRC, and it was nice to get some real fleshing out of Will and Deanna's backstory. The "love story" aspects of it were a bit silly/contrived, but do I really trust any Trek novel to handle a love story with all of the care it would deserve? No, no I do not. I'd rather have it be a bit goofy than overwrought and humorless.
Of course, I'm also a sucker for time travel, and since Imazdi promised that basically from the beginning...well, there's my hook.
For the PAD naysayers, I really think if they read the B5 Centauri Trilogy they might not even realize it was by the same author.
If you're a Borg/Doomsday Machine fan or a Trelane/Q fan, Vendetta and Q-Squared are worth it, respectively. I don't think either of those goes as OTT as BD.
I'm curious about Imzadi II but am worried I'd be disappointed by it. At the time the first book came out TNG was still pretty new, IIRC, and it was nice to get some real fleshing out of Will and Deanna's backstory. The "love story" aspects of it were a bit silly/contrived, but do I really trust any Trek novel to handle a love story with all of the care it would deserve? No, no I do not. I'd rather have it be a bit goofy than overwrought and humorless.
Of course, I'm also a sucker for time travel, and since Imazdi promised that basically from the beginning...well, there's my hook.
For the PAD naysayers, I really think if they read the B5 Centauri Trilogy they might not even realize it was by the same author.
(Apologies for the long pause. I got sidetracked by STO and forgot that I was quoting/replying to a post.
That's the thing: There's not really that much of a difference between the two, especially when you consider that it's the MU. I mean, circumstances are different, but other than that they retain the same personalities.
I'll definitely consider Q-Squared. For Vendetta, I'm wary, partly because I'm not a big Borg fan, and partly because BD is supposedly a sequel.
Like I said, it was interesting. The triangle between Worf, Riker, and Troi (heh, I had forgotten that the title was Triangle), but there were times when it felt a little too ambitious.
I definitely agree with that. An example of a book/story that felt overwrought and humorless to me is Revenant from Seven Deadly Sins. Do. Not. Want.
Interesting hook.
I hadn't realized he had written for B5.
That's the thing: There's not really that much of a difference between the two, especially when you consider that it's the MU. I mean, circumstances are different, but other than that they retain the same personalities.
I'll definitely consider Q-Squared. For Vendetta, I'm wary, partly because I'm not a big Borg fan, and partly because BD is supposedly a sequel.
Like I said, it was interesting. The triangle between Worf, Riker, and Troi (heh, I had forgotten that the title was Triangle), but there were times when it felt a little too ambitious.
I definitely agree with that. An example of a book/story that felt overwrought and humorless to me is Revenant from Seven Deadly Sins. Do. Not. Want.
Of course, I'm also a sucker for time travel, and since Imazdi promised that basically from the beginning...well, there's my hook.
Interesting hook.I hadn't realized he had written for B5.
^He wrote a few B5 episodes, too.
Maybe he and Harlan Ellison had a nice suck fest in a bar during their Bab 5 time.
Harlan: THEY SCREWED ME ON CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER, THOSE PUERILE MORONS!!!!
Peter: Janeway shall die.
