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(It's set in the STO universe. He's got temporal psychosis and "remembers" things from alternate timelines, including Janeway's death, the Borg invasion and even Vulcan blowing up over a hundred years ago)
It's really just all the baby stuff that was putting me off and I feel odd for saying it but I didn't finish the first book of Destiny because of it! My novelverse exposure is very limited so I didn't have any bearing on the Riker/Troi and Picard/Crusher baby stuff to begin with, plus it's not something that tends to interest me as a reader very much, plus the Riker/Troi aspects in particular were hurting my poor head.
I was actually skipping 3 or 4 pages at a time. It was easy to do, just waiting for the scene to change out of sickbay or quarters or wherever the angst was. Of course sometimes it snuck up on you.. unbelievably while facing a massive borg cube and/or the sight of a starship full of people you know blowing up incredibly stupid angsty "oh how can I ever tell him.. " thoughts run through Our Heroes minds. Yeah, whatever. I'm sure if the Borg came for me some idiotic misunderstanding I had a year ago with mr. teacake would be the very first thing I'd be thinking about.. not.
Just jump in where you left off. The Erika Hernandez story is fantastic science fiction, the trilogy was truly great.
It's really just all the baby stuff that was putting me off and I feel odd for saying it but I didn't finish the first book of Destiny because of it! My novelverse exposure is very limited so I didn't have any bearing on the Riker/Troi and Picard/Crusher baby stuff to begin with, plus it's not something that tends to interest me as a reader very much, plus the Riker/Troi aspects in particular were hurting my poor head.
I was actually skipping 3 or 4 pages at a time. It was easy to do, just waiting for the scene to change out of sickbay or quarters or wherever the angst was. Of course sometimes in snuck up on you.. unbelievably while facing a massive borg cube and/or the sight of a starship full of people you know blowing up incredibly stupid angsty "oh how can I ever tell him.. " thoughts run through Our Heroes minds. Yeah, whatever. I'm sure if the Borg came for me some idiotic misunderstanding I had a year ago with mr. teacake would be the very first thing I'd be thinking about.. not.
Ironically enough (considering my intense adoration and support for Janeway now) at the time, her death wasn't as big a deal to me. It was just the sheer amount of fail in the rest of it.
Yeah. I'm not a Janeway fan, per se, but I didn't hate the character either (and any further details on how I or anyone else feels about Janeway as she was depicted in the show should be saved for another thread, since that would be a huge derailment). But... if a main character - ANY main character from ANY of the shows - is going to die in the novel continuity... it should be in a better novel.
Oh and YES the Destiny trilogy is excellent! I had to bleep over all the baby angst but the original characters and storyline, of Erika Hernandez is incredible. I loved it.
We may be tearing each others' eyes out with spoons in the "Tuvix" thread, but on this, we can agree.
And I thought that both the Borg origin story and the ultimate resolution to the conflict were both brilliant, in a fascinating, and (in the case of the origin story especially) chilling way.
Other highlights included the seamless, slow intertwining of various, seemingly disparate plot threads, the very cool interludes in other locations (other Starfleet ships, Klingon ships, various worlds being attacked by the Borg, etc), and of course, seeing Captain Ezri Dax in action.
I said this on the Treklit forum once and was soundly upbraided for it, I believe I was told that I would understand these things better if I had children of my own.. which I DO so I know first hand that people do not carry on this way like some hybrid of Days of our Lives and Twilight about babies. It's really very dumbchilling stuff.
...I think every last one of those was necessary. I totally agree. I don't like reading, seeing, hearing people drone on such as they did, and it was really turning me off from it. I plan on starting off a couple of books prior to Destiny and really pushing myself next time, but for now I'm sticking with some DS9 stuff.
In the end, I had basically three major problems with Destiny.
One is a relatively minor complaint that has to do with the role of certain main characters in the final resolution. David Mack himself has said he thinks this could have been done a bit better, and essentially, I agree with what he has said about...
... the fact that the three 24th century Starfleet crews and captains kind of stand by and watch what happens, not really affecting it any longer.
Two is what a bunch of people in this thread have been talking about: the "baby angst." It was... yeah. Not gonna elaborate because others here have articulated it as well as I could. The Titan sections get much better later on (though overall, of the four "main ships" of Destiny, it's my least favorite), but especially in book 1, I found myself slogging through every Titan part thinking "Can we get back to the Aventine or Enterprise or Columbia?"
I think the assertion that if you have kids you will understand is a bit weak, too. Arguments like that are often (not always, but often) a cheap, backdoor way to remove the legitimacy of a person's right to simply read (or watch, play, whatever; experience in any medium) a story, and walk away saying "I thought this part was poorly written." I'm probably never going to have kids. That doesn't change the fact that I thought those parts of the book were poorly written. I'm never going to work on a starship, either; I can still watch Star Trek episodes and form opinions of them.
Three was the Hirogen battle. Everything about it just felt tacked-on and pointless, and (this is what REALLY bothered me about it, actually) it was a terrible case of red-shirting, unreasonable stupidity on the part of the good guys, and illogically overpowered bad guys with magic technology. Just... ARGH.
Hmm... personally, I'd word it thusly:
The focus is on the Enterprise, Aventine,Titan, and Columbia, more or less equally, with a mix on each ship of show-established and TrekLit-original characters.
What concerned me is the fact that Peter David has said he has an...antipathy, to put it nicely, with VOY and Janeway. I had raised the concern that, due to his dislike of both, why would you hire him to write a book where Janeway dies? It got brushed off and there was talk of "professionalism" and "professional writers can write even if they don't agree or like something". Which is bullshit, but whatever.
Just to be fair, the idea that any animosity toward Janeway from any editors played a role in the decision to kill her has been disputed by several TrekLit authors. Now, if PD did indeed dislike her, then assigning him to write her death was probably not a good idea.
Also, IIRC, Kristen Beyer said emphatically that "We couldn't think of anything else to do with her" was not the primary reason (or even one of the primary reasons) she was killed off. At least... I think it was Beyer. It was in a TrekLit forum thread that is no longer accessible, unfortunately (it's too old).
I disliked Calhoun from the one NF book that I (unsuccessfully) tried to read, but it wasn't until years later that I saw this.
Memory Bets said:
Shortly after Jellico and his son beamed down with Mackenzie and a security escort, the contact mission turned sour and the natives turned on the Starfleet officers. In the melee, all of the security escort except Calhoun was killed and he alone defended the Jellicos with a nearly depleted phaser and a club which he made from chair legs from between 15 and 20 armed natives. Although Calhoun suffered numerous abrasions, contusions, two broken ribs and a fractured skull, he and the Jellicos returned to their ship safely.
Yeah. I'm not a Janeway fan, per se, but I didn't hate the character either (and any further details on how I or anyone else feels about Janeway as she was depicted in the show should be saved for another thread, since that would be a huge derailment). But... if a main character - ANY main character from ANY of the shows - is going to die in the novel continuity... it should be in a better novel.
I do indeed concur wholeheartedly with this comment!
And I thought that both the Borg origin story and the ultimate resolution to the conflict were both brilliant, in a fascinating, and (in the case of the origin story especially) chilling way.
Other highlights included the seamless, slow intertwining of various, seemingly disparate plot threads, the very cool interludes in other locations (other Starfleet ships, Klingon ships, various worlds being attacked by the Borg, etc), and of course, seeing Captain Ezri Dax in action.
In the end, I had basically three major problems with Destiny.
One is a relatively minor complaint that has to do with the role of certain main characters in the final resolution. David Mack himself has said he thinks this could have been done a bit better, and essentially, I agree with what he has said about...
... the fact that the three 24th century Starfleet crews and captains kind of stand by and watch what happens, not really affecting it any longer.
Two is what a bunch of people in this thread have been talking about: the "baby angst." It was... yeah. Not gonna elaborate because others here have articulated it as well as I could. The Titan sections get much better later on (though overall, of the four "main ships" of Destiny, it's my least favorite), but especially in book 1, I found myself slogging through every Titan part thinking "Can we get back to the Aventine or Enterprise or Columbia?"
I think what "sucked" (speaking colloquially) is the fact that those sections shall forever remain in my mind the "baby angst" sections, and not even "the Titan sections".
I think the assertion that if you have kids you will understand is a bit weak, too. Arguments like that are often (not always, but often) a cheap, backdoor way to remove the legitimacy of a person's right to simply read (or watch, play, whatever; experience in any medium) a story, and walk away saying "I thought this part was poorly written." I'm probably never going to have kids. That doesn't change the fact that I thought those parts of the book were poorly written. I'm never going to work on a starship, either; I can still watch Star Trek episodes and form opinions of them.
Three was the Hirogen battle. Everything about it just felt tacked-on and pointless, and (this is what REALLY bothered me about it, actually) it was a terrible case of red-shirting, unreasonable stupidity on the part of the good guys, and illogically overpowered bad guys with magic technology. Just... ARGH.
Plus, Picard's ready room is burned! That's not cool, boo-boo!
(I agree that it was just unnecessary).
Hmm... personally, I'd word it thusly:
The focus is on the Enterprise, Aventine,Titan, and Columbia, more or less equally, with a mix on each ship of show-established and TrekLit-original characters.
Just to be fair, the idea that any animosity toward Janeway from any editors played a role in the decision to kill her has been disputed by several TrekLit authors. Now, if PD did indeed dislike her, then assigning him to write her death was probably not a good idea.
I'm not so sure...I went back and reread my BD review thread, and at one point it was mentioned, or heavily implied, that both PAD and Margaret Clark disliked Janeway.
But I agree that if PAD dislikes Janeway, it's definitely...questionable to assign him to write the book where she dies.
I had brought that up, but it was sort of "pooh-poohed" away.
Also, IIRC, Kristen Beyer said emphatically that "We couldn't think of anything else to do with her" was not the primary reason (or even one of the primary reasons) she was killed off. At least... I think it was Beyer. It was in a TrekLit forum thread that is no longer accessible, unfortunately (it's too old).
I don't remember myself. I *do* remember that it had been brought up by someone (possibly PAD himself on his site) and/or somewhere here.
I disliked Calhoun from the one NF book that I (unsuccessfully) tried to read, but it wasn't until years later that I saw this.
Memory Bets said:
Shortly after Jellico and his son beamed down with Mackenzie and a security escort, the contact mission turned sour and the natives turned on the Starfleet officers. In the melee, all of the security escort except Calhoun was killed and he alone defended the Jellicos with a nearly depleted phaser and a club which he made from chair legs from between 15 and 20 armed natives. Although Calhoun suffered numerous abrasions, contusions, two broken ribs and a fractured skull, he and the Jellicos returned to their ship safely.
Just read this through and found lots of it very interesting (even if much of it has little to do with the original question). From what I read, there really isn't much Beyer can do to "repair" PD's Janeway. That's what I figured.
Like others, I'm hoping that the current editors realize that they need to restore Janeway to the the Voyager Relaunch, and soon!
I hadn't realized she was trying to repair her until reading it here and in the Admiral thread (iirc). Now that I know this I can see it, trying to give reason and meaning to what was bizarre behavior in BD.
WHEN she is restored to Voy relaunch I want her back as totally human coffee drinking Janeway, not as some souped up Q-infected version. Just let some primitive culture find her (naked would be good) crumpled up in a forest on some backass planet, with no memory. They take her in and care for her and she gradually remembers who she is.. but not where she has been. Then she has to find a way back to Earth and once there a way back to her old life in a changed Federation. If Chak had found someone else and had an emo baby with them in that time period all the better!
Really, it's Q!!!!!!!!! It's not even lame if you bring people back via Q or Lady Q or Fred Q or whoever!! Come on publishers, JUST DO IT. Oh, and if you could get Jeri Taylor to write it I would die of happiness, but at this point I'll take anyone.
I liked Eden a lot, thought she was full of intrigue. Now that she's off in the Delta quadrant (assuming she still is, might be behind on that) she can just bloody well find Janeway stranded on a planet somewhere and bring her back. If they want to tie this in with the Asfarah origin story so much the better.
Characters do not tend to return from the dead in the Trek universe. In 40 years it's only been done once and that required an extraordinary set of circumstances.
Now if Kate Mulgrew wants to try her hand at writing a Trek Novel, then by all means, she can have at it just like Shatner. Then, just like Shatner, the other trek writers can ignore the story...hence Kirk still being dead in the mainline literature.
The simple fact is that there is no justifiable reason to resurrect Janeway. The Voyager books are better now than they ever were when she was alive. Star Trek is a vast and expansive universe and there is no need to bring back a character that was easily replaced. It's for the best that the writers not start treating death in the trek universe as being some ailment that you recover from like they do in comics. Main characters can and should die in the line of duty. It adds a bit of realisim to the stories and shows that what they do really is dangerous and that sometimes the ultimate sacrifice will be made.
Some people just need to learn to let go and move on. Voyager fans just seem to have an unusually juvenile approach to life and death matters when compared to other trek fans.
Really? Exactly what other major characters have died? When Kirk was killed off in Generations the fanrage could have fueled a small city. I was on a mailing list dominated by threads years later explaining in excrutiating detail why Kirk's death was pointless and a really dumb idea for Trek. Were all those people juvenile too?
Some people just need to learn to let go and move on. Voyager fans just seem to have an unusually juvenile approach to life and death matters when compared to other trek fans.
Wow. Just... wow. I thought your kind were long gone from these forums, but I guess not.
I see you didn't read the thread, or read anything about people's grievances (the character was written poorly by an author who disliked her, it was in a TNG book instead of a VOY book, etc.)
Try reading a thread before making personal attacks on people you've never, ever interacted with before. Are you always this warm and friendly to people you've never even chatted with? On what basis do you even make this claim?
And what "other" Trek fans? You realize many folks who like VOY watch and enjoy all Star Treks, yes?
When someone in my life dies, I often find I don't take it seriously. I guess I must be a VOY fan, because liking VOY makes me insensitive to death.
Some people just need to learn to let go and move on. Voyager fans just seem to have an unusually juvenile approach to life and death matters when compared to other trek fans.
Wow. Just... wow. I thought your kind were long gone from these forums, but I guess not.
I see you didn't read the thread, or read anything about people's grievances (the character was writn poorly by an author who disliked her, it was in a TNG book instead of a VOY book, etc.)
Try reading a thread before making personal attacks on people you've never, ever interacted with before. Are you always this warm and friendly to people you've never even chatted with? On what basis do you even make this claim?
And what "other" Trek fans? You realize many folks who like VOY watch and enjoy all Star Treks, yes?
When someone in my life dies, I often find I don't take it seriously. I guess I must be a VOY fan, because liking VOY makes me insensitive to death.
Actually i DID read the thread in it's entirety. There is nothing new here that has not been posted a thousand times by the same clique of obsessed Janeway fans. This is hardly a new topic around these parts.
While there are all sorts of Trek fans, the obsessive compulsive Janeways fans are unusually hysterical about this non-issue.
She was a fictional character that was killed off from the mainline Trek books. Most rational adults, like it or not, adjust and move on.
Given the sheer number of Trek characters out there...including all of those created specifically for the books...there is no justifiable reason for the writers to bring back this one. If characters like Kirk and Data...two character most associated with the trek franchise...can die and stay dead...then there sure as hell is no reason to bring back Janeway.
Honestly...so what if she died in a TNG book. Since it is part of a single continuity now it should not matter.
Given the sheer number of Trek characters out there...including all of those created specifically for the books...there is no justifiable reason for the writers to bring back this one. If characters like Kirk and Data...two character most associated with the trek franchise...can die and stay dead...then there sure as hell is no reason to bring back Janeway.
Honestly...so what if she died in a TNG book. Since it is part of a single continuity now it should not matter.
But it does matter, and it matters to a lot of people, people who watch the series and buy books. If our opinion doesn't matter, then yours doesn't either.
It's really easy to call others a "lunatic fringe" and discount them, but discounting people has a tendency to back fire, and then you wind up sounding like Gadhafi in Libya, telling the media that those opposed to him are drugged up teenagers.
You are not us, so don't pretend to know what we need to get over. That is insulting.
Characters do not tend to return from the dead in the Trek universe. In 40 years it's only been done once and that required an extraordinary set of circumstances.
Actually i DID read the thread in it's entirety. There is nothing new here that has not been posted a thousand times by the same clique of obsessed Janeway fans. This is hardly a new topic around these parts.
While there are all sorts of Trek fans, the obsessive compulsive Janeways fans are unusually hysterical about this non-issue.
She was a fictional character that was killed off from the mainline Trek books. Most rational adults, like it or not, adjust and move on.
Given the sheer number of Trek characters out there...including all of those created specifically for the books...there is no justifiable reason for the writers to bring back this one. If characters like Kirk and Data...two character most associated with the trek franchise...can die and stay dead...then there sure as hell is no reason to bring back Janeway.
Honestly...so what if she died in a TNG book. Since it is part of a single continuity now it should not matter.
Hate to break it to you, man... but we're all lunatic fringe here. We're Trekkies... posting on a Star Trek forum... about Star Trek. You are as hopelessly pathetic as I am. Neither of us are "rational adults" or whatever title makes you feel like you are a superior nerd to me.
They've made whole movies about us. And they're not complimentary ones, either.
It's like competing at a Magic: The Gathering tournament, and then calling someone there a "total nerd" for using a different color deck than you. Of course, your name calling doesn't change the fact that both of you are 28 years old and hanging out at a Magic: The Gathering tournament.
And you missed teacake's post, which had a valid point - people did go mad over Kirk getting offed. And Data. In fact, those are still sore subjects. And yes, whether you like the character or not, Janeway was the main character of her show, so there is some cause for uproar.
I have said before that her death isn't what really gets me - it's mostly the how and the why. If they reversed Janeway's and Picard's roles in BD, can you honestly tell me there wouldn't be an uproar? I'd be mad if Picard got treated that way as well. I'd actually probably be just as mad. Oh, wait - even better - what if BD was labeled as a Voyager book and Picard and Janeway's roles were reversed? But don't worry, it's all the same continuity anyway, right?
Holy hell, fictional comic book characters being killed make the mainstream news these days.
And, yes, this is a topic that comes up a lot. So does everything else in the Trek universe, because we only have a finite amount of stuff to discuss.
It wasn't that long ago that a few people were begging Treklit not to acknowledge the destruction of Romulus seen in STXI, set five years ahead of the current Treklit timeframe (2382).
I can't imagine a casual Voyager fan buying Full Circle or Unworthy. They'll have a look through, go "Who's Captain Eden? Who's Dr. Cambridge? Who's Admiral Batiste? Where's Janeway? This isn't Voyager." and put it down. Heck, I was the same way as a kid, looking at a comic book of Captain Spock commanding the USS Surak in a post-STIII story.
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