Voyager made the Borg wusses

[Oblivion165]

This has probably been said before but this is true of every single hostile species ever.

Ferengi, Klingons, Borg, "Romulan Star Empire", 8472....Xindi.

You name it, they all start off as:

But then at the end of the day they are always evenly matched or weaker than the federation.

 

[BruntFCA]

I'm not sure the Ferengi were ever badass but I get what your saying.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Then we see the Borg invasion in the Destiny trilogy, which is supposed to be a Borg act of 'vengeance' after the events of 'Endgame' because the Federation was a significant threat to the Collective after those events. But I think it was more a product of securing their own position as a major power in the galaxy; they can't do that if the Federation pose such a threat to them.

But even if the main catalyst for that invasion was Endgame, the fault of that does not rest on the shoulders of Captain Janeway. She destroyed the Borg Hub in an effort to protect the Federation, and Admiral Janeway went to obliterate the Borg Unicomplex for the same reason. How could either of them have known that a Borg invasion would be the fallout?

If you stir up a hornet's nest, it's a near certainty you'll get stung.

Janeway actually hurt the borg and she expected the borg NOT to retaliate?
Despite the fact that crushing the federation like a bug was easily within the collective's capabilities (a fact Janeway knew)? That the borg had slipstream and other beyond warp transportation is common in the trekverse (as Janeway knew)?
Really?

Janeway acted as a 5 year old, not able to think beyond 5 minutes into the future, beyond getting the ship back to Earth and hurting the borg.

Janeway - and the crew - were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.
They most definitely did NOT act to protect the federation.
And 64 BILLION payed with their blood for Janeway's egoism. A VERY HIGH price to pay for Janeway's wish fulfillment.

The very same thing can be said for the Borg in terms of their interactions with Species 8472, but they did so under the premise of assimilation, nothing more. If Janeway hadn't done something the Borg would have tried to assimilate the Federation anyways because that is their directive. The Borg are going to assimilate cultures no matter what; there is no stopping that.

In Endgame we are given the impression that the Borg are nearly crippled, which would seem to imply that they are not capable of retaliating for a long time (if at all). But of course, in the novels they bring back the Borg.

But Janeway acting as an egotistical five year-old? Really? And then placing all the blame for the deaths of sixty-four billion people on her shoulders? That's low.

The borg wouldn't have tried to assimilate the federation (with a large scale invasion) for decades without Janeway stirring up the hornet's nest - and starfleet would be in a far better position to confront them then - as admiral Janeway proves by her existing.

And Janeway DID act as an egoistical 5 year old in 'Endgame', putting her returning home and playing the knight in shining armor above the federation's interests - the federation's very survival:
First by showing off transphasics to the borg (which was bound to increase borg interest in the federation) and then by destroying the transwarp hub (which was bound to make the borg really pissed off at the federation).

Consequence - in trek lit (which we were discussing):
64 BILLION DEAD - the result of an utterly predictable borg counterattack.
What was unpredictable was that the federation actually survived - by means of 'divine' intervention from the caeliar, that is.

PS - Never throughout 'Endgame' were Janeway&co under the illusion that they'll destroy the borg or cripple it significantly beyond destroying the transwarp hub.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

If you stir up a hornet's nest, it's a near certainty you'll get stung.

Janeway actually hurt the borg and she expected the borg NOT to retaliate?
Despite the fact that crushing the federation like a bug was easily within the collective's capabilities (a fact Janeway knew)? That the borg had slipstream and other beyond warp transportation is common in the trekverse (as Janeway knew)?
Really?

Janeway acted as a 5 year old, not able to think beyond 5 minutes into the future, beyond getting the ship back to Earth and hurting the borg.

Janeway - and the crew - were either criminally negligent or criminally stupid or both.
They most definitely did NOT act to protect the federation.
And 64 BILLION payed with their blood for Janeway's egoism. A VERY HIGH price to pay for Janeway's wish fulfillment.

The very same thing can be said for the Borg in terms of their interactions with Species 8472, but they did so under the premise of assimilation, nothing more. If Janeway hadn't done something the Borg would have tried to assimilate the Federation anyways because that is their directive. The Borg are going to assimilate cultures no matter what; there is no stopping that.

In Endgame we are given the impression that the Borg are nearly crippled, which would seem to imply that they are not capable of retaliating for a long time (if at all). But of course, in the novels they bring back the Borg.

But Janeway acting as an egotistical five year-old? Really? And then placing all the blame for the deaths of sixty-four billion people on her shoulders? That's low.

The borg wouldn't have tried to assimilate the federation (with a large scale invasion) for decades without Janeway stirring up the hornet's nest - and starfleet would be in a far better position to confront them then - as admiral Janeway proves by her existing.

And Janeway DID act as an egoistical 5 year old in 'Endgame', putting her returning home and playing the knight in shining armor above the federation's interests - the federation's very survival:
First by showing off transphasics to the borg (which was bound to increase borg interest in the federation) and then by destroying the transwarp hub (which was bound to make the borg really pissed off at the federation).

Consequence - in trek lit (which we were discussing):
64 BILLION DEAD - the result of an utterly predictable borg counterattack.
What was unpredictable was that the federation actually survived - by means of 'divine' intervention from the caeliar, that is.

PS - Never throughout 'Endgame' were Janeway&co under the illusion that they'll destroy the borg or cripple it significantly beyond destroying the transwarp hub.

Clearly we have a difference in opinion on this matter.

I still disagree on the matter that Janeway is an egotistical five year-old. And really, if you're talking about a Borg counter-attack you should consider the Borg virus that was released on Earth almost directly after Voyager's return in the novels Homecoming and The Farther Shore, which the crew defeated and the people were restored to health.

Janeway being a 'knight in shining armour' - oh please. That can be applied to dozens of other officers in many other scenarios. Look at Picard in FC. He disobeyed orders to come to the Federation's rescue, good thing too. Sisko did as well, and so did Kirk.

And Janeway still becomes an admiral in the novels anyways, so what difference does that make?

Janeway & co never under the impression that they could cripple the Borg? I tend to disagree:

JANEWAY: We have an opportunity to deal a crippling blow to the Borg. It could save millions of lives.

Whatever your opinion is, Endgame is always going to be a source of controversey, plain and simple.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Borg virus that was released on Earth almost directly after Voyager's return in the novels Homecoming and The Farther Shore

This is supposed to be a counterattack from someone with millions of cubes, with the tech of thousands of starfaring civilisations at its disposal?

The borg didn't even feel the resources expended in that so-called attack (literally). It had nothing to to with that beyond unintentionally providing the tech to some crazies.

Janeway being a 'knight in shining armour' - oh please. That can be applied to dozens of other officers in many other scenarios. Look at Picard in FC. He disobeyed orders to come to the Federation's rescue, good thing too. Sisko did as well, and so did Kirk.

The difference is, those other officers didn't condemn the entire federation to annihilation just so that they can play 'knight in shining armour'.

Arguably, with the sole exception of Picard in 'I, borg'.

Janeway & co never under the impression that they could cripple the Borg? I tend to disagree:

JANEWAY: We have an opportunity to deal a crippling blow to the Borg. It could save millions of lives.

I said:
"Never throughout 'Endgame' were Janeway&co under the illusion that they'll destroy the borg or cripple it significantly beyond destroying the transwarp hub."

That 'crippling blow' refers to the destruction of the hub - and it saves the lives of those that are no longer within easy reach of the borg.
AND THE PRICE FOR THIS - the destruction of the federation. The borg don't need transwarp to reach someone if they really want to - they have slipstream, for example.

PS

Whatever your opinion is, Endgame is always going to be a source of controversey, plain and simple.

But not because there's something ambiguous about Janeway&co's criminal stupidity/negligence in the episode.

Rather, because Voyager/Janeway fans refuse to accept that their pet crew was depicted so atrociously and keep trying to save face for the characters. And are failing.

 

[TheLobes]

There was a change in VOY and FC from the concept of the Borg being less about who they were, and more what they did. In TNG the interesting thing about the borg was that they were a group mind. Picard was a captain who believed in diplomacy, so setting him against such a foe was a really good idea, most borg episodes deal with that conflict.

In VOY and FC the focus became less on what they were and more about the whole assimilation thing. Theres thousands of them, and if they catch you youre one of them. You started getting individual borg, especially the borg queen, who basically nullified the original point of that species.

 

[Oblivion165]

I'm not sure the Ferengi were ever badass but I get what your saying.

Well in the first season of TNG the Ferengi were mentioned several times and were described closer to Firefly's Reavers than the Ferengi we know today.

 

[User897]

"Voyager made the Borg wusses"

I can't agree with this statement more. It is so true. I was very let down by this. The show managed to turn the most horrific experience a person can go through (Jean-Luc Picard/Locutus) into an inconvenient costume change. How could they allow that to happen? How could it go from the biggest threat in the Universe to such "Oh let them assimilate us and we'll infiltrate them, then the Doc can fix us" rubbish? And, how could Janeway and Co. honestly think that the Borg were destroyed? Hasn't it occured to any of them that the Borg Queen may have had copies of herself hidden all over the Universe that "activate" when a catastrophic loss is detected? Or at least a "backup drive" if you will? It was just too easy, and too lazy in the writing department.

 

[Anwar]

The Borg were never meant to be some huge Universal threat. Right in their first appearance Q pretty much said that they were just ONE threat out there, and not the strongest either.

And assimilation was decayed as soon as it was introduced since we saw how easy it was to de-assimilate Picard.

 

[User897]

Nope. Don't buy it. But, to each their own.

 

[TerraNovan]

"Voyager made the Borg wusses"

I can't agree with this statement more. It is so true. I was very let down by this. The show managed to turn the most horrific experience a person can go through (Jean-Luc Picard/Locutus) into an inconvenient costume change. How could they allow that to happen? How could it go from the biggest threat in the Universe to such "Oh let them assimilate us and we'll infiltrate them, then the Doc can fix us" rubbish? And, how could Janeway and Co. honestly think that the Borg were destroyed? Hasn't it occured to any of them that the Borg Queen may have had copies of herself hidden all over the Universe that "activate" when a catastrophic loss is detected? Or at least a "backup drive" if you will? It was just too easy, and too lazy in the writing department.

I forgot about that episode thanks for reminding me

 

[Anwar]

Like I said before, no matter what kind of plot Voyager could've told using the Borg the audience was already set to hate it.

 

[Gowron]

I got news for you all. The inconsistencies in Star Trek, if you really want to look hard, are so frequent and so insulting that if you really want to bust out with a magnifying glass it is beyond laughable. Something that works in this episode, won't work next episode.

Laws of physics change from episode to episode. Peoples morals and values change.

I love star trek but honestly its sad and should be addressed because it is really freaking unrealistic.

 

[sonak]

Like I said before, no matter what kind of plot Voyager could've told using the Borg the audience was already set to hate it.

this assertion flies in the face of the facts. "Scorpion" is regarded as a fan-favorite. When the Borg were used well, the audience responded. It's easier to claim a non-existent bias though.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

"Scorpion" was a good episode where the Borg were used well but then again it was only their third appearance in VOY (after the corpse and the first batch of freed drones). The Collective was show in force with a single objective, to defeat Species 8472, they were still dangerous and threatening and weren't represented by a pair of breats in a catsuit.

It was after this episode they went down hill (for me anyway).

 

[Anwar]

Like I said before, no matter what kind of plot Voyager could've told using the Borg the audience was already set to hate it.

this assertion flies in the face of the facts. "Scorpion" is regarded as a fan-favorite. When the Borg were used well, the audience responded. It's easier to claim a non-existent bias though.

"Scorpion" is regarded as the start of the Borg decay because it showed that there was at least one alien species out there that could fight the Borg and win. The instant a Borg ship was shown to be destroyed by a normal weapon from an alien ship was the instant the Borg lost all threat as an enemy.

If "Unity" (with the Borg Cooperative) was the one and only Borg appearance in VOY then there'd still be the criticism that the Borg were shown to be "wusses" even though TNG did the same thing with "Descent".

Hell, if the one sighting of the Borg Corpse in "Blood Fever" had been the one and only appearance of the Borg in VOY then THAT would be the core evidence of the Borg being made into "Wusses", because up til then we never saw a Borg corpse!

 

[sonak]

Like I said before, no matter what kind of plot Voyager could've told using the Borg the audience was already set to hate it.

this assertion flies in the face of the facts. "Scorpion" is regarded as a fan-favorite. When the Borg were used well, the audience responded. It's easier to claim a non-existent bias though.

"Scorpion" is regarded as the start of the Borg decay because it showed that there was at least one alien species out there that could fight the Borg and win. The instant a Borg ship was shown to be destroyed by a normal weapon from an alien ship was the instant the Borg lost all threat as an enemy.

If "Unity" (with the Borg Cooperative) was the one and only Borg appearance in VOY then there'd still be the criticism that the Borg were shown to be "wusses" even though TNG did the same thing with "Descent".

Hell, if the one sighting of the Borg Corpse in "Blood Fever" had been the one and only appearance of the Borg in VOY then THAT would be the core evidence of the Borg being made into "Wusses", because up til then we never saw a Borg corpse!

again, I'm pretty sure that "scorpion" is regarded as one of the best VOY episodes. It was a good premise executed well. The later Borg "event" episodes like "Dark Frontier" and "unimatrix zero" tended to be generic action movie episodes that made the Borg into just another villain.

 

[Anwar]

No, it's regarded as the beginning of the fall of the Borg because it showed they weren't invincible like in TNG where only a plot contrivance could stop a Cube.

Nevermind that DS9 did the same thing with the Dominion and no one cared. 3 Bug Fighters can easily take out a Galaxy-Class in their first appearance and the later on in the show a Galaxy-Class can take out a squad of Bug Fighters no problem.

 

[Oblivion165]

No, it's regarded as the beginning of the fall of the Borg because it showed they weren't invincible like in TNG where only a plot contrivance could stop a Cube.

Nevermind that DS9 did the same thing with the Dominion and no one cared. 3 Bug Fighters can easily take out a Galaxy-Class in their first appearance and the later on in the show a Galaxy-Class can take out a squad of Bug Fighters no problem.

Yup it all goes back to what I said:

This has probably been said before but this is true of every single hostile species ever.

Ferengi, Klingons, Borg, "Romulan Star Empire", 8472....Xindi.

You name it, they all start off as:

But then at the end of the day they are always evenly matched or weaker than the federation.

 

[MacLeod]

No, it's regarded as the beginning of the fall of the Borg because it showed they weren't invincible like in TNG where only a plot contrivance could stop a Cube.

Nevermind that DS9 did the same thing with the Dominion and no one cared. 3 Bug Fighters can easily take out a Galaxy-Class in their first appearance and the later on in the show a Galaxy-Class can take out a squad of Bug Fighters no problem.

Perhaps, but wasn't that the first encounter with them. Before Starfleet had data on Dominion weaponary and learned how to adapt their shields?

But I don't think the Dominion were portrayed as quite the same threat level to the Federation that the Borg were. 40 Federation ships in there first encounter with a Borg vessel could do nothing. So much so that 39 of them were destroyed. Yet we are expected to believe that 1 ship is a match for a Borg cube.

You could say that compared toa cube Voyager is little more than a Dominion bug fighter. Could a Galaxy Class starship say take on 3 Dominion heavy crusiers as easily?